Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

It is loss of income the Senator expects would return to the lottery, were the bookies banned from taking bets on that. I accept that is the problem the legislation is trying to solve. Senator Boyhan mentioned that a lot of work has been done and there is a lot more work to do.Much work has been done, not just by the Senators but also within my Department. Commissioning that independent and external report is a good thing to do. Considering that report is good. Getting clear legal advice about whether this law would be challenged and whether that challenge might be successful is important and doing the pre-legislative scrutiny on the gambling Bill in the Department of Justice is also important work. We need to make sure it will stand up and that we have all the information we need to make a good law. We clearly share the same objectives. We want to make sure there is sufficient money for good causes.

We have been discussing the emphasis on making sure the money for good causes is retained and maximised. Senator Crowe suggested we should think about the prizes and the value for money for the consumer. We are trying with the Indecon report to make sure we follow best practice compared to other countries, to do a good analysis of what works in other jurisdictions and to make sure the money being spent on good causes is spent in a way that is transparent and obvious to the public, so that if we fund a project and people get a great benefit from it, they can make the connection between buying a ticket and something in their community getting funding. The EU does that well but perhaps that could be done better in respect of lottery funding. I look forward to seeing what is in that report. I know it has been drafted but I have not seen the draft yet. I think it is very close to its conclusion. It would be wrong to make legislation about this without having the report.

The comparison was made to the UK and other jurisdictions that have banned betting on lottery numbers. The problem is if the ban is brought in at the time the lottery is brought in or at the start, you have not allowed a business to build up and, as was said, a legitimate expectation for that business to exist. We are looking at Articles 49 and 56 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU in this regard. In Ireland for roughly 30 years, bookies have been running this business. The legal advice we have from the Attorney General's office is that if we take that business away solely on the grounds that we would like to take their money and spend it on good causes, that could be challenged and it may not stand up. We need to think about this.

Senator Boyhan referred to the harsh tone of the comments. That was never my intention and I apologise if my tone came across as harsh. In terms of working together on this, I am always willing to meet any Senator who contacts me. Any Senator who wants to come around my office and discuss legislation or ideas they have, I am willing and my door is open to anybody, whether a Government or Opposition Senator. That is always the way because I do not have all the good ideas. Most good things I have done have been somebody else's idea, I have to admit. That comes from being open and listening to people.

Senator Ward made the point that the regulation of the national lottery is completely separate from private gambling regulation and they are completely different animals. I am not sure I accept that. As I see it, the consumers are the same people. They are the public whether they walk into the bookies or buy a lottery ticket. They are buying it in different venues but they are the same people spending the same disposable income and, at the end of the day, they are gambling. They are betting in different ways. The only difference is the bookie is a profit-making organisation and the lottery is sending most of its money to good causes.