Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

This issue came extensively before the Committee of Public Accounts, and so on, at the time. I fully respect the academic autonomy of institutions, but we also expect that in respect of the very considerable sums of moneys that are made available to them by the State, that those institutions are accountable for these sums. I am particularly glad, incidentally, that the Minister is also addressing now the core funding issue. When the issues in respect of UL arose - there were other institutions involved also, and this is not just to single UL out - we, as a State were not able to get the necessary level of accountability concerned. The only options that were available, quite frequently, to the HEA under the old legislation was to send in a visitor. This was, essentially, to disband the governing body, to move in, and to press the nuclear button.

This legislation is about ensuring that there is accountability for the taxpayers' money that goes into the universities. We can have debates around the necessary safeguards which have to be put in place because I know that we have talked about conferring too much power on the chief executive of the HEA.We had some discussion of that principle on Second Stage. There have to be checks and balances in that regard. However, where there are checks and balances, because the Minister is democratically accountable to these Houses, the chief executive of the HEA is the Accounting Officer to the Minister. The HEA has to have a certain level of power with regard to the State investment that goes in to the institutions.

With respect to Senator McDowell, the Minister will not determine the academic policies of any institution. I would completely oppose this legislation if any such measure were in it. This is why it was considered in detail. Amendments were tabled in the Dáil to strengthen this. I am certain that no Minister or Government would allow for that in the Bill, especially when we are pointing the finger at countries such as Hungary. The safeguards are in the legislation.

Those of us who have been involved in the process for a long time know that this is about financial accountability and governance. We need to understand that it has nothing to do with the question of academic autonomy, which must be protected. It is important that we ensure there are people in the authority with academic experience and, equally, that people outside of academia are appointed. Ministers do not always get appointments right. Senator Hoey might remember that one of the appointments to the board of the HEA by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Bruton, was Mr. Paddy Cosgrave, who famously made a number of comments about academic achievement. It would be fair to say that the Minister and Mr. Cosgrave would not be good friends.