Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Senator Buttimer need not worry. I am only slagging. I am the same.

I see it in practise. Many people pay their bill electronically and then pay the tip in cash separately. The issue we would have, exactly, as Senator Casey said, is how the Workplace Relations Commission would trace the case. This legislation has to be workable and enforceable if we are to achieve what we want to achieve.

We should recognise that most payments are being made electronically and fewer and fewer people are using cash on a regular basis. We make a significant proportion of our purchases, including in person, through electronic transactions by debit or credit card, e-wallets, etc.

I want to assure Senators that in a case where a customer pays a bill which includes a mandatory service charge by cash, that mandatory service charge has an evidential trail and the WRC can consider a complaint. That is clearly on one's bill. One would be able to see that. We can and will trace that. We will pursue that as well.

I hope the Senators accept that it is in good faith. It is not trying to avoid anything. It is merely that it has to be enforceable.

We are committed to a review after a year. After six months, the Senator may come back telling me that we are completely missing something here and it is being completely abused. I do not think it will be. This legislation will work because everybody has contributed to it over a long number of years. It is the right legislation. It will work to what we are trying to achieve.

In relation to the electronic means, I spoke earlier about the amendments to clarify by reference that employers will be required to include details on how cash tips are dealt with when displaying their policy towards tips and gratuities. That policy is there for everyone to see and read. There will be no other regulation of cash tips because we cannot enforce it.

The WRC advises it would not be enforceable. It has been clarified in this legislation. It held the same view on Senator Gavan's legislation in 2017. It stated it was neither workable nor enforceable. I did not want to raise that earlier on but that was the technical difficulty with it. The WRC said that we would not be able to enforce it. There is no point in bringing forward legislation that we cannot stand over.

In relation to what is allowable for an employer to deduct out of tips paid electronically, to be clear, there is no question of paying for payment infrastructure out of the tips. It is not a case of paying for the machine at all. It is the fee charged for processing payments, bank transfers, etc., that is to be looked at. There are real costs here and it is not necessarily fair that the employer should take on those extra costs. In some cases, there could be other costs associated with legislation and that is allowed for as well. However, it is not to pay for the machine that is there anyway. It is additional costs that would not normally be there if they were not processing the tips through electronic means. We can clarify that more for Senator Gavan in regulation, if the Senator wants. I am happy to discuss the regulation with the Senator when we are doing that. That is what we are trying to achieve here so that no one is out of pocket.

The people are entitled to get their tips without doubt. If it is a service charge, that is what it is there for. People wanted them to have that but we also recognise that one cannot put extra cost on the employers. It goes back to the point that in most cases it is not necessarily a high margin industry. Of course, there are always some who will do well but the majority are covering all their costs, making a reasonable wage and want to continue with the business as well. We want to see the hospitality sector thrive and survive and more jobs created in it as well. It is not to put any extra costs on them. It is to make sure that people are getting what the customers thought they were giving them in the first place.