Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am just going through the thematic issues. Senator Hoey and a number of other Senators brought up the issue of guidelines; that the guideline has to be done and if that is not done one might be in trouble with the HEA. This also needs to be seen both in law and in context. The policy intent is compliance and I accept Senator Mullen's challenge to show that and to talk through it because he suggests that the sector has concerns about this. I hear that as well so I am happy to do that on Committee Stage and we will have a chance to tease it through.

This is about co-design and the HEIs themselves are consulted on the preparation of guidelines by the HEA and they can indicate any issues of compliance at that stage. One of these guidelines is about environmental sustainability and one will be about sexual harassment. We have an issue if public institutions are not implementing guidelines. These are not in the space of academic freedom; and I am sure the Senator will want to stress-test me on that and make sure that is the case but this is not a case of the Minister of the day saying this course should be provided, that course should not be provided or to teach a course in a particular way. This is about public policy and we are not interfering or intruding; we have every right to be in that space. If somebody else wishes to be in that space he or she should run for the Oireachtas and get elected because we have a democratic mandate and I will not apologise for developing an education system where the HEA, which is not just a funding body, will bring forward guidelines to make sure our sector leads when it comes to environmental sustainability, gender equality and access and inclusion.

In Senator Flynn’s absence I want to say I am taken about the point she made on universal design. We might need to explicitly state that in the legislation or we might be able to give an assurance around guidelines. I would like to return to that on Committee Stage also. I suggest that perhaps I can provide useful briefing and engagement on comply or explain guidelines and where we are. I am sure we can tease that through a little bit more.

I also want to mention the National College of Ireland, NCI, which Senator Malcolm Byrne mentioned, and I welcome Dr. Deirdre Giblin to the House. The answer to the Senator's question is that this legislation sets out a pathway for a designation. The National College of Ireland is playing an incredible role in our higher education landscape and if "unique" is not the right word it is pretty close to it and it is playing a special and particular role. We have had good meetings on this and this gives us an ability we do not really have at the moment in providing a pathway to designation. I discussed this with NCI and while this is not explicitly designating NCI - and I went through the reasons with it - it is providing a pathway that has not existed to date for it and for others.

We have had a good engagement. Senator Ó Donnghaile asked me if the number on the board is too rigid and that is a fair point. The number is arbitrary and there are no two ways about it. There is no reason 17 is better than 13, 15 or 19 but someone has to pick a number. We started wanting 12, we went to 17 and we are now at 19 because of the increased student voice and the knock-on effect on external members. The numbers 12, 17 and 19 have not shown huge rigidity.

I will come back to Senator Gavan on the UL governing authority and I note the point and the importance of it. I agree with colleagues. Education is a public good. As Senator Pauline O'Reilly said, education as a public good lies at the core of the Bill. That is why we are trying to pass what is a good Bill. We are trying to pass a Bill that is flexible and future-proofed. We are trying to provide a Bill that respects autonomy and academic freedom but also the role of the HEA, the Department and the Minister of the day and getting that balance right. I have no doubt that this House will tease those matters out with us at whatever speed it wishes. I look forward to that.