Pauline O'Reilly (Green Party) | Oireachtas source

The Minister is very welcome. Having been a member of the joint committee that did pre-legislative scrutiny on this Bill, many of the recommendations have been taken on board by the Minister so I thank him for that. However, I will outline some areas where improvement is needed. The lack of independence of thought leads to real issues across the globe. Education is front and centre when it comes to many of the problems across the globe. Much of the authoritarianism and populism is driven through education systems. Our education system came from being a method of control of the population. It has changed from that but it would be a grave misunderstanding of the current system to say it is autonomous and independent. It is to an extent but not having State control does not mean there is no control. It does not mean it is fully independent because everybody is dependent on something else for their funding. At the moment many institutions are heavily dependent on State funding, which simply is not enough. I think the Minister would admit that himself. He has made huge changes in that regard.

In 2018, a UNESCO paper stated, "Recent trends in privatization and marketization of education ... tend to favor a vision of education as an individual and consumable good". That is what we have to make sure we do in this Bill. What we are doing is stating that there have to be State controls when it comes to our education system. Otherwise we would be allowing ourselves to be at the whim of other forces. I have the utmost respect for institutions around the country. We have not gotten to that point but there is a real danger that we could, as has happened in other jurisdictions where people are essentially following the money. When there are large industries bringing money, particularly for research, it is very hard to say no to that. One of my colleagues mentioned the international element and what is measured. Oftentimes what is measured is research output and not teaching or that social good. The core of this Bill is about education as a public good and that is why it is a good Bill. It is long and lists stakeholder after stakeholder.

An awful lot of the recommendations of the committee were taken on board, as well as those made on Committee and Report Stages in the Dáil. The Minister brought his own amendments and did the work in engaging with stakeholders. He took on board the amendments that were put before him and tabled his own to take those things into account. I note that he has included trade unions as stakeholders, which is a massive step forward. During the pandemic we saw the absolutely essential role trade unions play in our education system. The unions, particularly the student unions at secondary and third levels, were in the centre when dealing with the pandemic. As was said by the Minister for Education and officials from her Department, the education system simply was not flexible enough at the time to deal with the pandemic. There will be more and more challenges like that in the future, climate change being one of them. There will be an influx of people from other countries, as is happening now with Ukraine. We need a flexible Bill and that is what this is. It is a flexible Bill listing stakeholder after stakeholder to be engaged with as institutions change and flourish into the future. The Minister has taken on board the recommendation that students be involved. Having sat on the board of NUIG, soon to be the University of Galway, I understand that it is a core requirement that the people who are in the middle of education are actually sitting there.That has been taken on board. I agree that this element of competency-based members and representation must be met. One of the difficulties is that people are on the údarás for a long period. They are all people who have left education whereas students are coming and going. That is the way it is written in at the moment. I would like if we could perhaps discuss that on Committee Stage and Report Stage. I know from personal experience that when people are coming and going on a yearly basis, they do not perhaps have the same influence as those who have been there for a long period. There is that institutional knowledge. There is an automatic respect for somebody who has been sitting in place for a long period. We need to make sure students are respected equally for their contributions.

It also seems there are points where it is written in that training goes one way and flows towards the students as opposed to it also being about listening to students. If there is to be full engagement, that is what we need to have in that regard. This Bill has huge teeth, particularly because it allows for the withholding of moneys. The real strength in this lies in withholding public money if things that are in place to actually protect the well-being of our population are not met. That must be front and centre when it comes to education. People should choose to go into education because it pays a dividend to them, and not just in economic terms but in terms of improving their lives. Of course, education is also about ensuring we have a strong citizenship and that we are working towards common goals. It should also give something back to individuals, however. That is why the emphasis that has been placed on equality, diversity and inclusion is incredibly important.

There is a missing piece here. I will go back to that issue around private schools and private institutions in general. It is still the case that nine of the 20 schools that sent the highest proportion of their students to third level education in 2020 are fee-paying schools. The Minister has addressed that in some ways but perhaps not through this Bill. I wonder whether there is something we can do around that. He has provided, for instance, €3 million for the higher education sector for more autistic inclusivity and to help autistic students navigate their time in third level. He has also provided €3 million each year until 2026 in order that universities can come up with pathways for students with intellectual disabilities. Those are hugely welcome, as is the widening of Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants. I could go on. I know there is much there but when it actually comes to the Bill, I wonder whether more can be done. Perhaps we need to look at that on Committee and Report Stages. I thank the Minister for his time.