Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

It was important that I came in early on this debate because we are not opposing the Bill and I want to be clear on that. I thank Senator Sherlock and her team, including Senator Wall, for bringing forward this Bill. We are happy to engage with the Senator to get behind what it is that she genuinely wants to achieve and to see if it threatens the legal position or not. We need to deal with her on that more.

I welcome the Bill from the Labour Party on the national minimum wage, which addresses a concern around internships that are either unpaid or paid at less than the national minimum wage. The Bill seeks to ensure that those performing work as interns are paid appropriately in cases where work has been undertaken by the person concerned. The Government is not opposing the Bill and we are happy to engage in more detailed scrutiny of it to see what we can achieve together on this. The Government believes that genuine internships, based on a training opportunity, can be mutually beneficial for interns, who gain first-hand and real world experience, and for employers, which gain from having another individual to perform tasks, often with a fresh perspective in the case of current students and recent graduates. It will be important to protect those genuine internships that involve training and in that regard we have to be careful with any legislative changes we make with this Bill. That is our concern and we will work with the Senator on that.

This Private Members' Bill is particularly concerned with arrangements where a person is undertaking work that is of benefit to an enterprise or another host organisation and the danger that such internships could be exploitative. We will all agree that should not happen and I am happy to work with the Senator on some of the cases she has put forward. I accept her point that there should be a level playing field for those who can access internships. If they are unpaid, that means they are not equal opportunities but we are clear that if interns are doing work then they should be paid and if it involves training in the Government-backed scheme, that involves payment in line with the minimum wage. However, other internships that are not on a level playing field and I am happy to work with the Senator and the various sectors on those.

The reference to performing more than 30 hours of work over a four-week period as a threshold has been put forward in the Bill. At present, the term "intern", as Senator Sherlock said, is not legally defined in employment law. A person is either a trainee, volunteer or employee under our law and employees, with some exceptions, are protected by the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and, therefore, while the Government acknowledges the intent of the Bill, it needs to be scrutinised to determine whether it provides any additional or enforceable rights to interns not already available in current legislation. That is slightly different from the equal opportunity that the Senator spoke about. That might not necessarily need to be in legislation and it might be possible to deal with that outside of legislation. I am not sure, on reading the Bill with my team, if it brings in any new protections for existing interns but we are happy to tease through that with the Senator.

Internships have increasingly become an integral part of the school to work transition for many young people. A 2018 paper from the International Labour Organization, ILO, found that internships can be associated with better post-internship labour market outcomes and that there is overwhelming evidence that paid internships are associated with better post-internship labour market outcomes in the short term than unpaid ones. That would match up with what the Senator is saying about her research; that they should be paid. The Government actively supports and encourages the use of internships and work experience programmes at secondary and tertiary level and throughout all stages of further education. We have an attractive scheme available, pathways to work, which is not being utilised. It has corrected errors in the past and it is set at the right pay level but I would like to see it more greatly used. I am sure from listening to Senator Sherlock's speech and from reading the Bill that there is no intention to change the status of such arrangements as part of this Bill. We are at one in trying to encourage proper internships that give training, enhance the person and give them an opportunity for the future.They give training in order to enhance a person and give people an opportunity for the future. If I am wrong about that, please let me know, but I assume there is no intention to change that. With the four or five cases set out, I just want to be absolutely clear we are on the same page in that respect as well.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is also responsible for overseeing the processing of work permits, including internship employment permits. One of the criteria for this permit is that the level of wage must be at the national minimum wage or higher. Again, I mention this to illustrate that the Government actively supports genuine internship that involve training and we want to continue to support these types of internships as part of our labour market policy. I assume we are all at one on that.

The Government believes that all workers should be rewarded for the work they perform and no individual should be exploited by performing work and not being rewarded fairly. The Senators cited some cases that do not seem fair to me. I am consciousness the employers are not mentioned but those are not something any of us would agree with. The Bill appears to propose and to formalise a notice issued by the Workplace Relations Commission in May 2019 in connection with the application of the national wage to contracts of employment and what constitutes such a contract of employment. It may seek to go beyond that. If it does, we must scrutinise it in detail to ensure that what is being proposed has merit and, ultimately, is enforceable. It is important that with whatever we put forward, we can monitor and enforce any provisions. That is why I differentiated the matter of a level playing field for those people who cannot afford to take on an unpaid internship. That might not be needed in legislation but it is certainly we can look at together.

As clarified in the Workplace Relations Commission notice from 2019, all individuals engaged under a contract of employment are covered under the National Minimum Wage Act 2000 and are thus entitled to the national minimum wage. That is clear in black and white. An important point is that a contract of employment is defined as any contract; however, it is described whereby an individual agrees with another person to do or personally perform any work or service for that person or a third person. There is no exemption in law from the obligation to pay the rates laid down in the National Minimum Wage Act when actual work is being performed. That is very clear. Therefore, the national minimum wage rates apply to work experience placements, work trials, internships and any other employment practice, regardless of the duration of the engagement.

The right to receive the minimum wage when work is being performed cannot be waived in a contract because any provision in an agreement to do so is void as a matter of law. The Government believes that all workers should be paid fairly for the work they perform, which at a minimum level would be equal to the current rate of the national minimum wage. This rate is designed to assist as many low-paid workers as is reasonably practical and to be set at a point that is both fair and sustainable. Since the establishment of the Low Pay Commission in 2015, there have been six successive increases in the national minimum wage rate, from €8.65 originally to €10.50 in January 2022. This represents an increase of 21.4%, which compares with an increase in consumer prices of 7% in the six years from December 2015 to December 2021, with much of this increase occurring in the second half of 2021. We are all conscious of what has happened in the past few months with inflation but I want to make the link that the Low Pay Commission has consistently been ahead of the consumer price index over those years, which is right. It is the case that we must look at what has happened in the past six months.

In addition to these increases in the national minimum wage, the Government is also committed to achieving its programme for Government commitment to progress to a living wage during its term of office. In January 2021, the Tánaiste requested the Low Pay Commission to examine this request and in March this year he received the living wage report. He is currently reviewing the recommendations contained in that report and intends to bring these to the Government shortly.

Another point to note in respect of this Bill is that since the establishment of the Low Pay Commission in 2015, not only has the minimum wage increased much faster than inflation but the share of workers on the minimum wage in Ireland has also fallen consistently. That is positive but we are conscious there is more work to be achieved. The share of workers on the minimum wage or less as a percentage of the total labour workforce reduced from 9.3% in the fourth quarter of 2016 to 6.8% in the fourth quarter of 2020. However, the Government also acknowledges there are too many workers on low pay in Ireland, and this is something the Tánaiste addressed in the Lower House quite recently. It is clear that this is something we intend to address in a wider series of reforms.

The Low Pay Commission will continue to look into all areas of low pay, including effects on employment and the impact of youth rates. That is in addition to the ongoing work of examining universal basic income. Again, the Government is happy to engage in detailed scrutiny of this Bill and it agrees with the principle that all workers should be rewarded for the work they perform. The Government is not opposing the Bill, but feels further scrutiny is required to assess in detail what additional enforcement rights it would provide to interns that are not currently provided for in the existing legislation. I commit to working with the Senator on this, as I have done with previous Bills.

The workplace and experience programme is operated through the Pathways to Work strategy by the Department of Social Protection. It is a scheme I have highlighted to many employers to the best I can, as well as people on the live register for more than six months, including time spent on the pandemic unemployment payment. It is not being utilised to the level I hoped it would. It is a demand-led scheme and we have set aside positions for into the thousands but fewer than a couple of hundred have applied for it. Again, there is a combination of employers and a real shortage of talent. They are looking to take on workers full-time. In addition, unemployment levels have gone back down to approximately 5% much quicker than any of us thought would happen, which is really positive. This workplace and experience programme would still be of benefit to some sectors and people. I ask people to give consideration to that scheme.

The scheme has been changed and adapted in comparison with other schemes over the years and it is a very fair scheme that guarantees nearly 60 hours of training during a six-month placement. Everybody gains, and it is well-monitored and co-ordinated. I encourage people to look at it. The current basic payment for participants in the scheme is just slightly under the minimum wage because it was set before the minimum wage change in January 2022 and we will deal with that and bring it into order. It is practically the same as the minimum wage but it should be the correct level so we will correct it.

The people on the scheme continue to receive social welfare payments in respect of qualified adults and children. In our view, it is set at approximately €311, which is above social protection and correct. It comprises 30 hours per week and is only for six months. I encourage people to look at the scheme because it is a genuine internship programme with training. It is well-monitored and it should lead to positive outcomes for those who need assistance getting back to work with an activation measure. It is also important for companies out there who want to try to create new jobs but may not be in a position to take on somebody full-time. This is a chance for a person to learn on the job and get the training before, we hope, getting a full-time job in the company. The work experience is certainly important and all the research indicates that genuine internship schemes, which I believe the Senator is in favour of, can work and be a benefit to those who take them on. That is only right and it is an area we want to continue to work on so we can deliver better programmes, if we can, along the way.

I thank Senators and look forward to further engagement on the Bill.