Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators for their contributions and for their positive comments on the Bill. I will tease through some of the issues that were raised.

I understand that Senator Hoey had to leave to attend an International Women's Day event. Today is an important day and we are all very supportive of it. On International Women's Day, I am glad to give a shout out to all of the women involved in our country and beyond and to acknowledge all they do to contribute to society, business and job creation. On that note, I am delighted to see that there is more of a gender balance among those who own and run companies and among employers right throughout the system, including on boards of directors. We all gain when there is a better gender balance, whether that is in politics, business, communities or families. I am delighted, from a business point of view, to see greater involvement of women in decision-making. That is something we can build on and it is something the Tánaiste is very keen to develop even further.

On the Bill, I thank Senators for their considered thoughts on it and for their support. As I said in my opening remarks, the intention is to have this system up and running in quarter 2 of this year. The payment system will be run by the Department of Social Protection. This legislation has been brought forward by my Department in conjunction with the Department of Social Protection. A great deal of work has been done over the past year or two by both Departments in order to make sure we get this right. I acknowledged in the Dáil and at committee but forgot to mention it here that there was support from all political parties over the past two years for this to happen. We said very clearly that this would happen. It was announced and confirmed by Cabinet in August 2021. People should not have had any anxiety about it because we have always said clearly that, in conjunction with the unions, this would be addressed at the appropriate time. The appropriate time to address and confirm it was before section 12A of the Redundancy Payments Act was lifted last October. That was dealt with, and the system will be up and running soon.

Some technical advancements had to be made in the Department of Social Protection over the past few months to get this right. The Department is working on its systems, and this should be up and running hopefully in the first half of quarter 2. That is what we are going to try to do. It will be online and employer-led but there will be situations where the employer is no longer around or may not want to be involved. We will ensure that every employee is looked after so if an employer does not lead with the online application, we will deal with paper transactions for employees. In that way, everybody will be captured and nobody will be left out. People will not fall between two stools. Those days are gone thanks to joined up thinking across all Departments. There has been great co-operation between the two relevant Departments on this legislation.

Senator Ahearn asked what the maximum payment would be in rough terms. If someone was laid off for the whole period of the Covid restrictions, the maximum payment would be approximately €2,268 so the Senator's estimate of €2,000 was nearly right. Thankfully, the majority are not in that situation. The majority were at work for some periods during the restrictions and, hopefully, even those people who were laid off for all of that time will not be made redundant. As Senator Casey said, however, we do not know the full fallout from Covid yet or what will happen to those companies. Senator Burke made that point too. This legislation is pre-empting situations that might arise over the next three years. It is important and timely. As Senator Casey said, it is common sense and logical to try to be ready for scenarios that might arise while hoping that they do not. The Department of Social Protection will operate this as a Covid-19-related lay-off payment. We will update the House when the process is up and running.

Another issue that was raised was the development of solutions in the context of informal insolvency. Again, to be clear, there is already legislation in place for this. It is not often referred to in the Houses and it is not often used. When we sat down with the Debenham's workers we agreed that we would try to strengthen the legislation that is in place. The Tánaiste was very clear about that when we met them first, along with their union, Mandate. We went through all of this with them and said we would review the situation to see if we could strengthen the law in this area. It was not appropriate to bring forward any changes in this legislation. Some of the changes required will involve other legislation. Consultations have been ongoing with trade union and business representative bodies, and there have also been discussions in these Houses, around deficiencies in company and employment law and changes that could be made to improve the position of employees who find themselves in a redundancy situation due to company insolvency. Following that engagement, the Government's plan for action on collective redundancy following insolvency was published last year.

I am happy to provide an update to the House now. On company law, the Companies (Rescue Process for Small and Micro Companies) Act 2021, which was discussed in the Seanad, amended the Companies Act to enhance the provision of information to employees as creditors. Employees were not always kept up to date in terms of the information to which they were entitled so that has now changed. The company law review group presented its report on the consequences of certain corporate liquidations and restructuring practices, including the splitting of corporate operations from asset-holding entities in group structures to the Tánaiste and Minister of State, Deputy Troy, in December 2021. This work reflects complex policy issues and the Department is currently examining the recommendations made in the context of the plan for action. The Government will provide for any necessary further amendments to the Companies Act and will do so in a way that does not unduly impede enterprises in the conduct of their business. That report will be published, along with the recommendations from the Department on it, very soon.

I am not going to name any companies but some situations have been name-checked in here and in Dáil debates which are not correctly in that category. There are very big differences with some of these situations but we will strengthen the legislation in general. I am not going to reopen the whole debate, but there has been some misinformation on this that is not backed up by evidence. I have repeatedly asked for that evidence in both Houses. Again, I would ask those who constantly make claims that if they have information that the Department does not have, please bring it forward and we will act on it. It is not right to keep making assertions without backing them up. That is all I would say, particularly as the courts have a different view to that of members of these Houses. Misinformation does not help when we are trying to bring forward legislation to deal with these situations. Regarding the situation with a particular company last year, I would say that people were given misinformation and led in the wrong direction by some politicians. That resulted in a lot of unnecessary hardship for people who were led down a path that delayed them in moving on with their careers. People were not always well served. We should deal with the facts and the evidence as best we can.

On changes to employment law that are recommended, an information handbook was published in December 2021 which provides clear and accessible information on the rights and remedies available to employees facing a collective redundancy situation following a company insolvency. That handbook helps people to navigate the system with clear, concise information on their entitlements. The drafting of the heads of a Bill amending the Protection of Employment Act 1977 has commenced and that Bill we be brought before the Houses very soon. Work has also commenced on the drafting of the terms of reference for the employment law review group and on organising suitable membership of same. Our immediate focus is to get this group up and running, initially on a non-statutory basis, in quarter 1 of this year, and the Tánaiste will be announcing that quite soon.That group will be placed on a statutory footing as soon as possible thereafter. We are progressing with our commitment to strengthen the legislation in that area. We recognise the difficulties for anybody who ends up in a redundancy situation. It is not one that workers want to be in and, as Senator Burke referenced, it is not one that their employers want to be in. Most people start and grow a business with the full potential to serve an area and to provide a service or an asset, or to deliver or make some goods, but part of that involves the creation of jobs. They take that role very seriously. That is certainly the case with all the Irish-owned companies that we work with on a daily basis through our development agencies. They are very much committed to their staff. While they never want to be in a redundancy situation, it can happen and we must protect everybody as best we possibly can in that situation.

I look forward to Senator Burke's Bill coming forward and to having a conversation with him because he has identified an area that we all recognise. There are a lot of small businesses out there who are under immense pressure to try to find finance to meet everyone's entitlements if a situation goes wrong. There is legislation to protect employees with statutory entitlements but very often an employer is left with one asset and that must be sold in order to pay the redundancies. I am not aware of too many situations where a family home is pursued by the Department of Social Protection for the Social Insurance Fund. It is my understanding that it is generally avoided, but I will check that. It is something we can discuss and clarify as well during the debate on the Senator's Bill. None of us would like to see that happening, whatever about other assets. There are companies that are in other situations. The Department of Social Protection works with employers to avoid undue duress on anybody and it tries to find a payment mechanism to make it a bit easier for companies as well in a redundancy situation.

It was correctly identified earlier by Senator Ó Donnghaile that section 12A was there to protect jobs, businesses and workers. In some situations, if redundancies are triggered too early, it could put jobs in jeopardy. Likewise, when redundancy payments are due, there is a recognition by Departments that some companies need to be assisted in that regard in the early stages to save other jobs and they can pay it back over time. There are mechanisms in the Department of Social Protection to allow for assistance with statutory payments and for the money to be paid back over time. Efforts are made to work out a payment plan that suits to keep a business afloat and protect the jobs that are still there as well. We can discuss that further when Senator Burke brings forward the Bill but I am happy to work with him on it and to see if we can improve the situation. At the end of the day, we are trying to encourage more people to create jobs. We want to have jobs. All the signs are very positive in respect to the recovery from Covid, but that is because employers take a risk and give people jobs in the first place. I hope people will start companies and do all that. We try to be as employer-friendly as we possibly can, while also protecting workers, which is key. It is important to get the balance right. In most situations, as a country we get the balance right but we need to build on it as well.

That leads me to the points Senators Ahearn and Casey referenced. We have come through Covid, and companies have shown great resilience. They were assisted with the support of taxpayers through Government initiatives. That is key. Everyone gained from that. We still have a functioning economy. Thankfully, a lot of people are going back to work now or are back in work but there is more pressure on the system because although we have come through Covid, due to the war in Ukraine there is significant pressure on costs, especially energy costs, as Senator Ahearn mentioned. He referred to someone driving from Clonmel to work. Naturally, we want to keep all the people in Tipperary working in Clonmel and other parts of the county, but the reality is that people commute. It is now standard that a bill for fuel of €100 for people who must travel from Clonmel or Navan elsewhere to work, has doubled to €200. There is immense pressure on family income as well. The Government will be bringing forward initiatives to address that. It has done so already, but a lot has changed in the past ten to 14 days. More initiatives will be announced by the Government. That is also putting immense pressure on businesses. Senators Ahearn and Casey and others have raised that in the debate. Without doubt, there is so much pressure in the transport, distribution and logistics sector that it has a knock-on effect on any product or service that is for sale. The situation is being monitored and tracked by the Government, in conjunction with packages from the EU, to see how we can respond. Without a doubt, there will have to be additional supports. The economy is going to go through a difficult time with pressure on costs as a knock-on effect of all the sanctions and the consequences of what is happening in Ukraine. We are doing the right thing as a country to support the people of Ukraine as best we possibly can. We are doing all we can to help them by opening up our own borders, but it will have a knock-on effect on the economy and families and businesses will need assistance to get through this, and they will get it from the Government. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, have been talking about this recently and they will be bringing more initiatives forward in the coming days and weeks.

I have covered most of the issues raised. I will take a quick look to see if I have missed anything. It was correctly flagged by many people at the time that legislation would be coming through but now is the right time to do it and it will be in place for anybody who needs redundancy in the weeks ahead as well. If I missed anything, I will clarify it later. I thank Senators for supporting the legislation.