Rónán Mullen (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Higgins for trying to give me reassurance and I respect what Senator Pauline O'Reilly has to say. However, if it were to be the case that only people who are in favour of legislation in some form would ever make observations about the unsought side effects or unforeseen consequences contained in a particular legislative proposal, we would not be doing our job at all. I am entitled to test these provisions and try whatever intellect I have in applying it to them. It is the same for everybody here.

I disagree with Senator Pauline O'Reilly's point about what is meant by an independent chairperson in this context. As I have said before, where legislation might have unforeseen consequences - which could be raised, in this instance, by those who might argue in favour of extending abortion services or those who might say something was not foreseen or discussed when the Bill was introduced - that is all within the remit of a review of the legislation and, therefore, independence really requires somebody who does not have an expressed personal ideological preference about any of the issues. That is always what we look for when we look for independent people. It is not just about being independent of Government; it has never thus far been described as such, so far as I can see.

In response to Senator Higgins and the point about people expressing a view, she points out that there is a whole set of subcategories that seek to define what "express or demonstrate" means, but that includes advising, persuading and informing, or attempting to advise, persuade or inform, any person concerning issues related to termination of pregnancy services etc., with references to "by any means" and "without limitation". In other words, if I am in a conversation in a coffee shop and I discover that somebody is involved in the provision of abortion, these provisions might include a situation where I were to say, "Do you know there is now a significant debate about the capacity of an unborn child to feel pain in the course of an abortion and that it should not be happening without precautionary pain relief being legislated for or ethically?", or "I would encourage you to think about whether you should be involved in providing abortions". That is all in there and I think Senator Higgins has been too rash in trying to allay the concern I have expressed. I ask her to read the text again. I think I read English as well as she can. She is a very good and powerful advocate for her point of view and I credit her with that. However, it seems clear to me that anybody who would seek to advise or even inform somebody about the injustice of abortion, if that conversation is happening within a so-called safe access zone-----