Paddy Burke (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on the work he has done on the restructuring of facilities and payments for local authority members. I thank the Cathaoirleach for bringing forward the provision whereby panel-elected Senators can table a motion. It is a great idea because, in this case, more than likely, the motion has had cross-party support from the moment it was put on the Order Paper. Given the five panels in the House, it is a great idea. The Seanad was set up in the first instance in order that educational panels could jointly bring forward motions. Finally, I thank and congratulate the Senators who tabled the motion, namely, Senators O'Loughlin, Wilson, Ahearn, Conway, Moynihan and Ó Donnghaile. It is a great initiative and I welcome it.

It has been almost 20 years since I was a councillor and there have been some huge changes in those 20 years. At that time, there were town councils and county councils. The former dealt mainly with larger towns and so on, while the latter deal with more rural areas and rural towns. The issues, too, were completely different back then. While there were some housing loans and issues like that then too, today it is completely different because housing is a bigger issue altogether. Planning is also a different, bigger issue because if someone applies for planning permission today, it could well be five years before the project comes to fruition. Councillors have to deal with all that, as well as many social issues. I welcome what the Minister of State has done for councillors thus far. It was unprecedented and it took much courage on his part to raise those issues, given that councillors' pay is not a popular issue.

Moreover, the areas covered by the local authorities are much larger than they were in my time. Councillors represent a larger hinterland and bigger populations, and in that regard, they face different issues. I agreed with Senator Conway when he suggested legal advice be provided to councillors. They are completely on their own. They are sole traders, whether we like it or not, regardless of whether we introduce maternity or paternity leave for them. A councillor is a sole trader and is on his or her own. Issues can arise in respect of legalities and it is only right, in line with the proposal made by Senator Conway, that they would have legal advice available to them. It is a lonely place for a councillor on his or her own, without legal advice and having to dig deep into his or her own pocket, as many councillors have had to do to protect their good name, even though many of them win their cases.

I do not fully agree with Senator Malcolm Byrne’s points. I think there would be problems if a person was directly appointed in somebody's place at a council meeting. I could foresee legal issues there, particularly if a county development plan was in place. It is a document with much legal weight and that could cause great problems. As other Senators outlined, secretarial services should be the least councillors get. They should be able to conduct their meetings on Zoom or whatever medium is in order. There should be a facility whereby there could be some councillors in the chamber and others on Zoom who are on maternity or paternity leave. That is the least we should expect.

The Minister of State is a very capable man and I know he will take a serious look at the problems councillors will face over the next 20 years. They will face many problems and they need those supports. They need to be able to attend meetings, whether in person or through Zoom, because they have to be up to speed and the only way they can be is by attending them. It is all well and good to read the minutes of meetings and all the documentation that is sent to councillors, but when they are in the chamber listening to other councillors, they can learn an awful lot. That is why secretarial services are the way forward and they should have the other facilities as well, such as legal advice and so forth.