Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Acting Chairperson for his ongoing contributions and his often wise words in this area. I thank all Members of the House for their contributions on this issue. It was valuable of Senator Dolan to call out the numbers for the support schemes. That is important and I echo her reminder that those supports are there for all survivors of institutional abuse. Victims of mother and baby institutions get priority access to counselling. That is free counselling and it is available during the day and out of hours. The Senator called out the number for the out-of-hours services but there are also services available during the day and survivors get priority access. It is important that the scheme is in place and has been since the start of this year.

Senator Dolan noted that back then Ireland had a deep level of poverty, a poverty we will never know. It was not only material poverty. What we are now dealing with was a poverty of kindness that existed in these institutions. I agree with the point Senator Higgins made that irrespective of individual positive stories, of which there are some, we are dealing with mass institutional failings by these institutions, the congregations that operated them and, ultimately, the State that oversaw the situation. That was why the apology by An Taoiseach was made on behalf of the State. The action plan sets out 21 other actions that come in behind that apology to demonstrate that it is not just words but a set of actions in response.

Senators raised issues with elements of the institutional payment schemes, including some of the criteria to be used. That was also the case in the Dáil and some survivors and advocacy groups have also raised issues. I acknowledge that those concerns have been raised. I have received approval from the Government to bring forward legislation on the basis of the scheme I have laid out in this House and the Lower House. There will be a legislative process and an opportunity in both Houses to debate and discuss the various elements of the scheme. I will address where we are coming from on some of those points as I go through it.

I absolutely recognise what a number of Senators have said about the need for speed and the need to ensure that we can start making these payments at the end of next year, in light of the age of a significant number of the survivors and their need to access the wider range of services that the enhanced medical card will provide. That is why it is important for us to implement a single application process for both the medical card and access to the payment scheme, when it is proved that the person concerned spent the requisite six months in an institution. That is the proof required to access the medical card. It will not be the usual process for a medical card. This is a different statutory scheme and I hope that will speed up the process of delivering the medical cards. I know that was an issue raised here.

A significant number of Senators raised the issue of engagement with congregations. At the time the commission report was published, I wrote to all the congregations and informed them I would be seeking to engage with them on an apology, their contribution and the provision of records they may have. We made a determination that the most important issue was to design the scheme and commence the drafting of the legislation. I have subsequently written to the congregations seeking meetings and I will meet all them in the coming weeks. This will be the start of a negotiation, I have no doubt, and I am cautious and will not discuss specific approaches here, as I think everyone will understand. It is essential that the congregations make a substantial contribution to this scheme. In the same way the Taoiseach's apology will not be seen as more than words if it is not followed through with a range of actions the Government will bring forward, the apologies from the congregations, which I acknowledge a number of them have made, will count for little in the eyes of survivors if they are not followed up by a demonstrable contribution to this scheme. It will be on that basis that I will be engaging with them.

Senator Higgins raised some issues about the waiver. I can confirm there will be no gagging order. Survivors will be fully at liberty to disclose the financial payment they receive, should they wish to do so.

Wider questions were also asked about the waiver.The waiver will be signed at the end of the process, survivors will know what they are being offered, including financial payments and medical cards. They will be able to make a determination if they feel the protection of their legal rights is better achieved through litigation against the State. We will provide them with financial support to access legal advice at that point. They will get legal advice to assist them in making that determination. That is an important element of the design of the waiver scheme.

Senator Ó Donnghaile referred to my engagement with Northern Ireland. I have had a number of engagements with the Executive, including the Minister, Robin Swann, and I met Judith Gillespie late last year. Following the publication of the commission's report, I met the then First Minister, Arlene Foster, and the deputy First Minister, Michelle O'Neill. We discussed the commission of investigation's report. Subsequently, at meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council in its health configuration, which have continued although the other councils have not, this issue has been discussed. The most recent one was about a month ago. We had a substantial discussion about the truth panel that the Senator spoke about. There is continued engagement. We have committed that it will be a specific item at the next health council, to look at opportunities for increased North-South co-operation.

A number of Members spoke about access to information, which is a fundamental issue for many adopted people in this country. Since a judgment in 1998, we as a country have been unable to grapple with it. A pre-legislative scrutiny report on the information and tracing legislation is being negotiated by the Joint Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, which has done fantastic work. A number of its members are in this House and have committed themselves to this. I believe that this legislation will address the issue of people having a legal right to unredacted copies of their birth certificates, birth information, early life information, medical information and any items that may have been left in an institution for them. That is the element that we have focused on. This mechanism deals with those whose births were illegally registered in St. Patrick's Guild. There will be a clear statutory basis for a tracing service to enable agencies to provide better tracing. It also provides for the protection of records. A significant number of records are still in private hands, which is dealt with in the legislation. This legislation will allow us to finally grasp an issue that has evaded Governments for more than 20 years.

As Senator Conway said, it is right to acknowledge that there were mothers in these institutions who kept that secret. It is not for me or anyone else to speak as to whether that was right or wrong. It was what they felt they needed to do. Some of them are concerned about the prospect of that unredacted information going into the hands of their children who were subsequently adopted. We are looking to get that balance right. We have decided, and I think everyone in this House agrees, that people's right to know their origins is central and it cannot be undone or undermined any more. We have to ensure that the manner in which that information and the legal right to it is provided to those who were adopted, subject to illegal birth registration, or boarded out, is done in a way whereby it provides some recognition of the other set of rights. In situations where a mother does not want her identity to be known, there are two sets of rights, which are the right to identity for adopted people, which has been denied for too long, and the right to privacy for the mother. We are trying to do that in a respectful way in the information and tracing legislation.

A number of Senators spoke about Tuam, about Catherine Corless, and her contribution to revealing what happened in Tuam and, as such, starting this conversation about mother and baby institutions. I know there is real frustration in Tuam that the remains of those infants continue to lie in that tank. I share that frustration. I acknowledge the groups, and Catherine Corless, are frustrated with me as Minister that this has not been addressed yet. We brought forward the draft of the certain institutional burials (authorised interventions) Bill in January of this year. It underwent six months of pre-legislative scrutiny in the Oireachtas joint committee. It was right that a delicate Bill was given real consideration by all members of that committee. It sent a report to my Department at the end of July. It was a challenging report that sought substantial changes. We have engaged with that, with the Attorney General and with other Departments. I hope to be in a position early next year to bring forth the final draft and introduce it into the Houses on Second Stage in order that we can begin the process of passing that legislation.

I believe that we can get the agency that would be created by that legislation established next year and that we can start the excavations at Tuam next year. We all need to understand that the exhumation and identification of the remains will be a lengthy process. We have to be honest about that but I want to see that started next year. There is a provision in the budgetary allocation for my Department for the initial costs of that agency. A number of Senators have been to the site. I have read about it and seen the documentaries. Senators have spoken about how the impact is only felt when people are at the site and realise that the remains of hundreds of children are just under their feet. They were treated in a way that none of us believe is acceptable. Irrespective of whatever our religious or philosophical views are, I do not think that anyone believes that what has happened there is acceptable. We need to move quickly to address that.

A number of Senators raised the issue of people who were boarded out and I will make a number of points in this regard. Any child who was in an institution for more than six months and was subsequently boarded out from that institution will be able to apply under this scheme for the time in that institution. They can apply for the medical finance, medical card and the financial payment. Children who were boarded out are not excluded from this scheme. They get their financial payment and medical card if they were in a mother and baby institution for more than six months.

On the wider issue of those who were boarded out, I have met some individuals who were boarded out. They told me stories of the severe physical and sexual abuse that they suffered. They have publicly stated their disappointment that this scheme does not address the time for which they were boarded out. This scheme is designed around the investigation into mother and baby institutions. That investigation took five years and looked in significant detail at each of the 14 mother and baby homes and four of the county homes, then drew conclusions on the other county homes as a result of that. As part of that investigation, the commission met those who had subsequently been boarded out. Some of them told personal accounts of great brutality. Some had different experiences of being boarded out and were adopted or brought into those families.

Our scheme is designed to deal with the trauma, the harsh institutional conditions and the stigmatisation of mother and baby institutions. If people were in these institutions for a period of time, they get a payment. As I have explained previously, that has been done to make this simple and easy to access. The type of individualised assessment that we would need to do for people who were boarded out and their experience does not meet what we are doing with this scheme. It is my view and that of the Government that the needs, understanding and experiences of those who were boarded out do not match what we are trying to do with this scheme, which is to have it be simple and easy to access for survivors. It does not require proof of abuse, testimony or cross-examination; all the problems that have been raised with previous schemes.It is for that reason that this scheme does not propose to specifically address the time people spent boarded. As I said before, however, those who were boarded out will be able to qualify if they spent six months or more within one of the institutions.

I have tried to address a number of the issues raised by Senators. I have no doubt that there will be significantly more debates in the context of the ongoing legislative process with the legislation on which this scheme will be based. I look forward to hopefully bringing in other key legislation as well, namely, the birth information and tracing Bill and the institutional burials Bill. I know that there will be great interest in those Bills in this House. I look forward to continuing to advance the other actions proposed. The range of actions is listed on the website and there are copies available so I invite Senators to look at that. If they know survivors or groups in their own areas, they may be able to link them to items that we are advancing as part the wider suite of actions.

I am always happy to come to this House to discuss these issues and update Senators on our progress in respect of this important work. I thank the Senators for their engagement today. I recognise the survivors, their support groups and their families. I acknowledge that the Government still has a very substantial amount of work to do in this field but we are looking to advance each of these issues through the 22 actions. Those actions, combined with the State apology, are important steps towards genuine repentance by the State for what happened to women and children in these institutions.