James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Cathaoirleach again for his initiative. I thank the Seanad for taking this item of business. We had a smile and there was a bit of confusion about my role on one or two occasions, but I think that is because this is a novel concept. It is something I absolutely commend. It gives ventilation to these committee reports and, as one Member said earlier, ensures that they are not left on a shelf but, rather, ventilated here and then scrutinised and returned to after the fact to see that they have stacked up. I thank Alan Guidon, who is in the Public Gallery, as the clerk to the committee. I am very honoured to speak on behalf of the committee and to chair the committee because it is such a hard-working, industrious, productive and talented committee. It is rich in Seanad membership, as I said at the outset, so I thank all my colleagues in this Chamber for that. I thank in particular Alan, who deals with aplomb with the volume of work that comes before us and the many constituent priorities in my own head as well as in every other member's head. He manages to make it look easy. That is always the best compliment if someone can do that.

I will respond to some of the contributions Members made if that is in order and if I have a moment to do so. I will start with Senator Hoey. I thank her for sharing her very personal, difficult story. I listened intently to her contribution, which was very moving and must have been very difficult for her to make. I believe her, of course, and I thank her for what she said. I am so sorry that she had that experience. It brings home, as other Members have said, the proximity, unfortunately, of these issues to all of us, be it in our work lives, our family lives or our social circles. Unfortunately, that is happening across the country.

Senator Ruane spoke as a mother of two. I am a father of two daughters and can empathise with the Senator, who is a very valued member of the committee and who made many contributions to it. I do not want to live in a world where people do not feel comfortable coming forward for the same reason.

Senator Ward made a point which was well articulated as always. He said there is a concern - I think we all share it - that there is a chilling effect in respect of particular lines of questioning. They are rare and there are existing procedures to stop those lines of questioning. For example, it is rare that a victim is cross-examined on their sexual history or their undergarments. It does not happen in the vast majority of trials, but when it does happen it is amplified into the media and everybody reads about it and is horrified and shocked, and that has a chilling effect on people coming forward. How do we manage that? From a statutory basis, there are rules and procedures in the common law whereby a judge will admonish the person and say, "No, you are not going there." Perhaps that needs to be put in statute and front-loaded. That is something we considered in our report.

Senators Mullen and Gallagher and, I think, another Member mentioned Councillor Deirdre Donnelly, who was documented in many of these findings. She was in touch with me recently as well regarding the report in the context of counselling records. I think a few other Members touched on the possibility of people's medical accounts and records being used in a trial. I was surprised to hear that. In the course of this report and in my own professional practice - I qualified as a barrister - I have never come across that. It is something we need to look at to see whether it can be done. I would have thought such evidence was privileged, inadmissible or both.It is something that I do not think should be possible. I will follow up on the matter on behalf of the Senators who raised it, as well as Councillor Deirdre Donnelly, who brought it to our attention.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly referred to RSE and consent. I totally agree with her. A very interesting point was made in respect of juries. Trials of this nature are on indictment and, in the age-old tradition, before a jury of one's peers. As our peers become more aware of these issues and consent training is rolled out and each generation comes through, they will be more knowledgeable, understanding and informed, so the people making that decision in the jury box will actually be recipients of that. That is a really profound point that carries through. It is certainly a point I will take away from this debate and it is yet another argument to support the roll-out of that training.

I thank Senator McGreehan for her comments. She made several very interesting and solid observations. She suggested that the protections that surround a trial process may somehow be linked or aligned with a suggestion that a complaint may be vexatious or frivolous. If that suggestion was made, it was not made at our committee. It did not feature in any of our discussions and it is certainly not a view I share. However, while recognising the validity and imperative of every single victim who comes forward - this may be where confusion arises and it is what makes the report so difficult - we must also stand on the Magna Carta, the bill of rights, the American declaration, the European Convention on Human Rights, the Constitution and, most recently, the European victims directive, which put in place the foundations of criminal trials and which mean that you cannot be automatically guilty when you walk into the room; there must be a protection and a defence available to those who are wrongly accused, which, unfortunately, does happen. Sadly, we have seen travesties of justice in this jurisdiction and many others across many areas and offences. That is something we should never stop trying to avoid because it is a pitfall of the justice system. That point may have been misinterpreted in the context of the comments made by Senator McGreehan.

Senator Conway spoke about leaving the report on a shelf. That is exactly what we do not want to do and it is why we are here today. I again thank the Cathaoirleach for facilitating this debate. It is so important that these reports are ventilated and given an opportunity. I am humbled and honoured to be the first committee Chairman to come before the Seanad. I commend the House on facilitating that. It has been extremely worthwhile. This has been a really useful debate. It helps to give the report legs and move it on to the next stage. It will certainly prompt a wider debate. I wish the House and the Cathaoirleach well in their future debates on this issue. I am sure that the Chairmen of other committees will come before the Seanad and that other reports will be scrutinised in the same way. That is exactly what we need to do and I thank the House and the Cathaoirleach for facilitating it.