Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I am not sure how to follow that, although I am perhaps unsurprised as Senator Keogan has gone back and forth and taken different approaches to this crisis over the past year and a bit. She has contradicted herself on a number of occasions. It is unsurprising that she uses language about experimental vaccines that we know have worked. The vaccine programme has been a universal success in this country and I have complimented the Minister on that previously. That is not to say I am uncritical of how we have dealt with it and that mistakes have not been made; they have.

I have reservations about aspects of what the motion proposes. In fairness, the Minister has also expressed reservations. It is not where we wanted to be. I listened to what he had to say about where the current figures place us on this spectrum. Even in that regard, we can be quite proud of where we are on that relative to our counterparts in this part of the world and in other parts of the world.

The figures are worrying. Sometimes the job of Government is to make unpopular but courageous decisions to do things that people do not want us to do because they are in the common good. The real challenge is in identifying where exactly that line is. The danger is pushing through something that is unnecessary simply because a particular expert has advised the Minister to do it. That said, I am very conscious of what has been said by the relevant experts in this case. There appears to be unanimity among them as to what we should do in respect of this. I am also not uncritical of what they have done and said in the past. At times they have gone too far. It is our job as a Legislature to consider what they say, assess it critically and make a decision based not just on the scientific evidence.

One of the issues that has dogged us throughout this pandemic has been the debate between those who say we must slavishly follow the scientific advice and those who acknowledge that for us as legislators and for the Minister as a member of Government our job is not to slavishly follow that advice but to critically analyse it and to make a decision that does not simply take account of the scientific element because that is only one element. We must also counter that with the economic effects, the social effects, and the effects on individuals from the point of view of their own physical and mental health.

All of these factors must be weighed up in arriving at a decision, which is why I recognise that there are times when the Minister and his Government colleagues have made decisions that do not exactly mirror the scientific advice. That is exactly right and proper. I see no contradiction in that. I see no difficulty with the idea that we should listen to the advice of experts, parse it and take from it what we need before making a decision that is hopefully in the best interest of everybody in the country.

In considering what we are being asked to do today, we must also consider the legislation we are being asked to renew. The Minister has pointed to the sunset clause that is coming next year and that this will be the final extension of this legislation. That is as we voted for when these various Acts were being passed. We all hope there will be no further need for legislation in this vein or any need to legislate for the restrictions and the infringements, if I can put it in those terms, on people in this country.

I also welcome the booster programme and the suggestion that boosters will be available particularly to those in the most vulnerable categories. We all hope that as we get to the end of this year, we will hear much more positive news than the figures the Minister has outlined today and how we might address them.

We need to examine the effectiveness of the laws. Based on what the Minister has told us, we do not have any analysis of how often they have been used. How often have these significant powers included in these Acts been deployed by the relevant authorities, be it An Garda Síochána or anyone else? How many cases have arisen from that? How many successful prosecutions have there been? It is important for us to have that information to make a proper assessment of the necessity for this legislation or otherwise? I say that in circumstances where I have every intention of voting for this motion, reluctantly or otherwise. None of us is happy about it, but I accept what the Minister has said that it is necessary on the basis of the advice he has received.

Many of the legislative instruments he is asking us to extend are ineffective and unusable. I said that during the debate on the Health (Amendment) Act 2020 last year when we identified in the Seanad on a Friday evening some significant flaws with the legislation. In particular, the definitions of an occupier and things like that render it absolutely useless. I have no concern that that legislation will be used to trammel any individuals rights because it is not constructed in a way that makes it usable. Nonetheless, there are other important powers in the legislation we are renewing.

The Minister made reference to the vaccine passport. I absolutely and fundamentally disagree with the comments of Senator Keogan on the creation of a two-tier society. We would all like to be able to do whatever we would like to do without the restrictions being in place, but that is a fact of life. The reality is that we need to make tough decisions from time to time. I genuinely feel for people who are unable to avail of the vaccine for whatever reason, particularly because of their own health. I do not feel for people who choose not to do so. That choice is not just about themselves, but also about the people they live with, the people they work with and the people they meet in the street, the supermarket or wherever it might be. I have little enough sympathy for those people.

However, there is a cohort of people in society who are unfortunately caught in the situation where they cannot be vaccinated for whatever legitimate reason, meaning that there are certain aspects of social interaction and ordinary activity in society that are not open to them, which is regrettable. Unfortunately, some people choose to capitalise on that and to focus on terms like "two-tier society", which are grossly unfair in circumstances where we are facing something that has life-and-death consequences for certain people. We cannot be cavalier about it like that and we should not try to score political points from it.

As I have said, I will support the motion. I would like the Minister to address the two issues I have raised. First, how much has the legislation been used or required? I am not talking about the restrictions that we know about, such as the vaccine passports; I am talking about the times when the State or any State agency has been required to take action on foot of the particularly penal provisions that remain in these Acts. What has the outcome of them been?

Second, many of the provisions we are being asked to renew today are ineffectual; obviously many others are not. A concern was expressed in this Chamber at the time of the passing of the Health (Amendment) Act 2020 that I think is correct. It was passed on a Friday night to be in place for the weekend, but I do not believe it has ever been used - perhaps for that reason. The Minister might be able to confirm that.

It is a horrible political cliché that we are where we are, but that is the reality of the situation. We had all hoped to be further along the road than we are now, but we are not there. I acknowledge that in those circumstances we need to maintain certain measures.