Barry Ward (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

It is my honour to move the Bill. I am delighted to see the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth. He was my neighbour and colleague for a long time on the council in Dún Laoghaire. It is great to see him taking the Bill on behalf of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

In essence, the Bill seeks to prohibit the use of commercial or private gambling or betting operations on the infrastructure put in place by the national lottery, predominantly the lotto and there are other games with which people around the country are familiar. I will outline why we want to do this. I will also address some of the issues that have been raised by various people who have contacted me with concerns about jobs.

The national lottery operates in this country under a licence that is granted by the Government. In doing so it operates in a very privileged position. It has a monopoly on this type of activity in this country. It does so in the interests of the public and the State. The way it works is that it takes money in as part of its operations but much of this money, or a significant portion of it, come back to the country in good causes. Between 28 cent and 30 cent in every €1 spent on the national lottery in Ireland comes back to the State and, therefore, to the people as part of the good causes fund.I call that the social dividend that comes from the national lottery because we can all recognise the dangers associated with gambling. In this House, we have had many conversations about what those dangers are and where the risks lie, particularly for people who are susceptible to addiction and dangerous gambling habits. None of us wants to see that happen. I am not here to promote the national lottery in any way but the reality is when people in Ireland spend money on lotto products, or whatever it might be with the national lottery, there is a social dividend that comes back to us. The good causes money comes back to communities, villages, towns and areas throughout the country through sports capital grants and all kinds of other grants that are given for activities at local level. That has to be recognised as a good thing.

At the moment, many private commercial gambling companies, betting companies and bookmakers operate a system whereby they allow people to bet smaller sums on the outcome of the lotto. In doing so, people spend less money but also win a sum of money because the odds are different and all that kind of thing. It is not to pass any judgment on that, but the reality is when people spend money in a bookies rather than their local shop or wherever it might be, it is money that is diverted from the national lottery and put into the hands of private interests in this country. These companies essentially make a profit off public infrastructure. We should be in no doubt that the establishment of the national lottery, and the infrastructure it puts in place to run the lotto with which we are all familiar, costs money to establish and to run on a weekly basis. All the checks and safeguards that go with that are important to make sure that people can have confidence in the correctness, fairness, impartiality and appropriateness of the way in which the lotto runs. It is inappropriate that private interests are allowed to piggyback on that infrastructure, take what is paid for, in essence, by the public purse - the licence is granted to one company - and then use that to make profit for their own gain.

I am not here to say that bookmakers should not be allowed to make profits or to say they should not be able to make money. Of course, they should. I recognise a large number of people in this country are employed by various bookmakers and betting companies, many of whom have been in contact with me. I understand they might fear for the future of their jobs but I do not believe that what is proposed in this Bill will in any way impact in real terms on jobs in the betting industry. I have heard from various sources the amounts of money that might be involved in this and I take all those figures with a grain of salt. I do not know, and I do not think anyone knows definitively, how much money this might cost bookmakers or might profit the national lottery or vice versa. The reality is a very significant amount of money is being spent by Irish people in bookmakers who are betting on national lottery products. Every penny they spend in a bookmaker rather than in their local newsagent, grocery shop or lotto agent, is money that is diverted from the national lottery and, therefore, diverted from the good causes I spoke about. A third of that money goes back into local communities, which is why this is a bad thing. I am not saying there should not be betting or gambling. I am saying we should not allow private interests to profit from the infrastructure the national lottery has put in place.

If we imagine a person going into a bookmaker to spend money on betting on the national lottery other than putting it through lotto, there are two effects. First, the money they spend on that bet is money they do not spend on a lotto ticket. I do not think for a moment that somebody who spends a smaller sum at a bookie is now going to buy a lottery ticket if they did not before, but some people undoubtedly will or they might irregularly or less regularly buy a lottery ticket. There is, therefore, a profit or a sum of money that could be identified that does not go into good causes. More than that, all over this country, newsagents, small shops, groceries and local shops provide a service to communities and are the lotto agents that sell the tickets. Every time somebody goes into a bookmaker to bet on the lotto rather than going into their local shop, they do not buy a pint of milk, newspaper, loaf of bread or whatever it is while they are in there. That is another important part of what this Bill will do. It will preserve the footfall into small shops the length and breadth of this country, which are the lotto agents that provide a valuable service above and beyond what the lotto does. That is an important aspect of this as well.

The Bill amends section 46 of the National Lottery Act 2013, which is the underpinning legislation. Essentially, leaving aside all the definitions, it does three important things and amends that Act in three respects. It makes it an offence for any private bookmaker or betting company to use the national lottery infrastructure to sell a betting offer or to create a bet; it increases the penalties because there are already penalties in place in that Act for abusing national lottery infrastructure or whatever it might be; and, importantly, it also creates a corporate offence. This is not about penalising individuals. The reality is what we are talking about here is often done at a corporate level by the large bookmaking companies we are all familiar with. It is not about an individual person in a shop who might run this but penalising the company if it breaks the law. In fairness, given these are all legitimate operations, I suspect that if this Bill was to become law there will not be any need for these penalties. The point of the Bill is that it criminalises or outlaws the use of national lottery infrastructure. I have gone into some detail on why we are proposing this change.

It is important to say this is not anti-bookmaker legislation. The proposal is not to do down legitimate and responsible bookmaking organisations, which are companies we are all familiar with because they are household names. It is to divert money currently going to those private interests back into the national infrastructure to provide for a situation whereby the citizen gets the social dividend I spoke about. The more money that goes into the lotto, the more money that comes back. I say that not by way of promoting the national lottery but in recognition of the fact the licence is designed in a way to maximise the benefit for society and the citizen through the good causes fund that goes through the Department and is redirected into communities through things such as sports capital grants. It is extremely important we make sure the national lottery is viable and makes a profit. As I said, I do not speak on behalf of the national lottery and there are some people who will say that the national lottery holds a unique position. That is undoubtedly the case but it has that position with a view to, ultimately, benefiting the entirety of society to allow it to benefit from the good causes fund.

I hope the Government will accept this proposal. It is something that is measured and makes sense. It also recognises the fact that, and my colleague, Senator Carrigy, will speak a little about this, the national lottery operates other strictures on its activities that are built-in protections for citizens who might be susceptible to gambling addictions. I am not saying the bookmakers do not provide that, but they are much less restricted in what they can and cannot do. This is a sensible, measured and conservative proposal to allow a situation where the citizen of Ireland gets the most he or she possibly can from its national lottery through the good causes fund. I hope the Government will support it.