Seanad debates

Tuesday, 28 September 2021

Defence (Amendment) Bill 2020: Second Stage

 

2:30 pm

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators for their contributions. To respond to the issues they raised, which have come to light because of public comments made by the group now called "Women of Honour" and which have been reinforced by conversations my Department and I had with serving personnel, I wish to reinforce to the House how determined I am to address this issue. I say to anyone who suffered during his or her time in the Defence Forces that, as Minister for Defence, I am truly sorry that they had that experience. That is not the Defence Forces that we work for. There is a need for a core change of attitude and culture among some in the Defence Forces towards women and diversity more generally. It is not only women who are affected in the Defence Forces. That is a matter that my Department and I and the leadership of the Defence Forces are determined to deliver. We will first work with women who have been brave enough to come forward, and others, to make sure we put in place a structure that is independent, strong and robust enough, has terms of reference that are fit for purpose and allows a group to start that piece of work and come back with clear recommendations that we can focus on implementing.

A number of Senators asked why it takes a public scandal for action to be taken. When Dr. Tom Clonan did his doctoral thesis on this issue in November 2000, his findings were shocking from many people at that time. Quite a lot happened after that. In September 2001, an external advisory group chaired by Dr. Eileen Doyle was established to deal with the challenge of the workplace in the Defence Forces. Its remit was clear. It was "to determine the nature and extent of any harassment, bullying, discrimination or sexual harassment within the Defence Forces; to review existing policies and procedures on interpersonal relationships within the Defence Forces specifically in regard to harassment, bullying, discrimination, or sexual harassment; to make recommendations on strategies and programmes for the development of a culture based on dignity of the individual and mutual respect." That was 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, we have heard far too many examples of disgraceful breaches in standards that have resulted in isolation and discrimination and, at times, sexual harassment in the Defence Forces. We have also heard stories that occurred all too recently. This issue is not necessarily about putting structures in place. In 2004, we had an independent monitoring group, phase 1. In 2008, we had an independent monitoring group, phase 2. In 2014, we had an independent monitoring group, phase 3. Good people were on those review panels trying to bring about change, and the Defence Forces tried to put new structures in place to respond to that.

In 2015, there was a report of Defence Forces which included a have your say climate survey conducted by the University of Limerick. It was comprehensive survey work which tried to understand people's concerns and anxieties in the Defence Forces in order that we could respond to them. In 2016, phase 2 of the report, Workplace Climate in the Defence Forces, was published. In October last year, a report by the Defence Forces working group on the implementation of the independent monitoring group and its phase 3 recommendations was published. There has been much supposed change but the truth is we must ask if it is changing the environment for vulnerable people or those who become vulnerable in the Defence Forces because of the attitude problem of a minority who can cause huge problems for people trying to develop a career in the Defence Forces. We have an obligation to protect them in terms of structure and systems, standards and attitudes.We are going to fix that this time. I wish to state clearly to Members that we are going to work with people who have been brave enough to come forward because sometimes that has a consequence and takes its toll on people on a personal basis, that is, on their family, friends and indeed on their careers. We know that and consequently, despite all the work that has been done in the past 20 years, we must find a way of really changing the experiences of people in the Defence Forces for the future. If we do that we will make a very significant contribution to the lives of young women and men who join the Defence Forces, of course, but we also will make a positive impact on recruitment and retention. We will see a shift within the unique structure of the Defence Forces, which, as many Members are aware, is a hierarchical structure with a chain of command and so on. Nobody in the Defence Forces, regardless of who he or she is or how high-ranking he or she is, should be allowed to abuse their power and people must be held to account. I am not sure who made the point but this is both about a change in culture and about clear protections and accountability within the Defence Forces from the very top down. That is what I hope we will be able to achieve, following the bravery of many people who have come forward in the last number of weeks.

As for the legislation itself, on the Reserve and the multiple questions people have had in respect of employment protections, Senator Craughwell is right in this regard. If you are a reservist who is working and if you want to volunteer for a mission at home or abroad, we must find a way of ensuring you can do that without risking your own job, whether it is in the public or private sector. I gave a commitment that we would try to progress that. I cannot progress that on my own as Minister for Defence. I must work with other Ministers who are responsible for employment legislation and so on, be that across the public sector or more importantly, in respect of employment legislation in the Department with responsibility for employment. We will try to progress something there and do it in a pragmatic way that can work for employers but also for people who want to be active members of the Reserve.

On the issue of training, it goes without saying that I am not going to sanction anybody travelling abroad to a complex peacekeeping mission without appropriate training and equipment. The life of a reservist is just as important as that of a member of the Permanent Defence Force. It is my obligation to do anything we can to manage risk before sending anybody abroad. We will of course ensure the standards are as they should be.

On the issue of child soldiers, I am very outspoken internationally on this issue, as is Ireland as a country. We must be crystal clear on this issue, that is, no children coming into the Defence Forces. I understand about some of the programmes and schemes in other countries with respect to pre-military training and so on but in law we must be very clear and consistent with international law, quite frankly.

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