Lisa Chambers (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister to the Chamber. I congratulate Senator Ruane on bringing the debate to the House. It is important that we have this conversation. Many of the points I was going to make were made by Senator Wall. Having the conversation when a student reaches third level is probably a little late and we have a big job to do. The issue is getting worse. There is far more aggression now than there ever was. One of the challenges we face relates to that level of complacency, whereby we think we have achieved everything we need to achieve, that equality has been achieved or that the streets, universities or workplaces are safe places for women, but we find time and again they are not. Many of these complaints are very recent. I commend Dr. Aoibhinn Ní Shúilleabháin, who highlighted this at the outset. She is a fellow countywoman of mine, a friend and someone I admire greatly. It took great courage for her to come forward and tell her story in great detail in order that we could all learn from her experience. She did so because she is in a position where she can now help others, but for many years she was not listened to. Her employer fell far below the standard expected of an employer in regard to protecting her in the workplace and other people in her position.

An important task for the Minister and his Department is to try to understand and figure out why victims do not come forward and what prevents them from making a complaint in the first instance. We can all guess as to why that might be the case - I have never experienced it myself in the workplace or at third level - but we need to listen to victims and frame our response by taking our lead from them. Why do victims not come forward? Why do people not go through the complaints process? Is it just that the complaints process is inadequate? That is probably part of it, but there is also a stigma attached to making a complaint. The person might feel like a troublemaker, embarrassed and ashamed. Worst of all, the person may wonder whether others will not believe the complaint or what will happen, after the complaint has been made and all the person's dirty laundry is out there for everybody to look through, if there is not a resolution at the end of it and others believe him or her over the person making the complaint. I imagine that is the greatest fear for many people who have experienced this in the workplace. It is important that we advocate for victims and understand, first, what the changes are that we need to make. We do not know exactly where we need to go on this. That is the point I am making, perhaps in a roundabout way.

It is important that universities embark on a campaign on their campuses in respect not just of consent but also of the complaints mechanisms that are in place, such as whom a complainant should inform and to emphasise that it is confidential and that there will not be a retaliation against the complainant by the perpetrator or his or her group. Very often, and especially in the Defence Forces scenario Senator Wall outlined, the person carrying out the harassing or bullying is in a position of power and the person being targeted is often in a weaker or vulnerable position, and the former may play on that relationship of having more power. The perception to the victim, very often, is that it is not just the complainant that the victim is up against but rather all his or her colleagues, friends and the entire institution that is built to protect. We have seen in many organisations and institutions that when a complainant comes forward, people batten down the hatches and protect their own. That is the culture we need to stamp out and get rid of. It is not just at third level but it is prevalent there. When somebody is there long enough, he or she will be somebody's buddy or somebody's colleague, and there is a reflex to try to protect that person and just get rid of the matter, rather than deal with it head on.

In light of this debate and of all the people who have stepped forward to tell their story - I have no doubt we will hear more - let us find out why people do not come forward. Let us identify the problems and get the universities to be proactive and take measures. Only then will we see real results for future generations coming through, whereby they will be truly safe and inclusive spaces for people to come into where they can feel safe in making a complaint.