Alice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

To address the Minister's direct question, there is a difference between my amendment and the provision in subsection 9 in that section 20A(9)(a)(iii) is in respect of temporary contracts whereas my amendment is more in respect of contracted services. It is just a slightly different issue as it is with regard to services that are contracted and not people on short-term or temporary contracts. As has been mentioned, it is with regard to agency workers or others who might be providing contracted services.

I understand this is slightly more difficult to capture. I will reserve the right to introduce an amendment on Report Stage, which perhaps the Minister might be able to address. This is one of the arrows towards where we might need to go next with legislation. For example, we know in respect of the public duty on equality and human rights that there was quite a gap between public bodies beginning to understand their obligations on the public duty on equality and human rights and understanding that it also applied to their contracted services and procured services. This process is still under way.

Similarly, an understanding of transparency, and considering and thinking about the gender equality perspective that we want to be an outcome of this, should also be applied with regard to the procuring of services and the contracting of services if a company is aware it will affect the big picture in respect of them. Sadly, as I have said, we have seen cases, even in public bodies, whereby they have allowed measures that clearly do not meet equality standards within companies from which they have contracted. We have a lot of records on this. This is what I am pointing to. I am quite open as to how we get it. I recognise it may not even go into the Bill yet but an arrow needs to point to it. I do not know whether this would be through a report or regulation but it is missing.

With regard to the question of pseudonymisation, other amendments will come to the nub of this. For this legislation to be really effective it needs to be more than just a moment or snapshot of where things are. It also needs to show momentum and the patterns. In this regard, we know that one of the absolute keys of the success of the Athena Swan programme, which has been quite successful in driving cultural change in universities, is that it is not simply about pay but specifically looks at the gender breakdown of who is on what type of contract. This is absolutely key in the Athena Swan programme. It is not just about whether people are being treated equally at each level of the ladder but who is on what type of contract, who is on secure contracts, who is on temporary contracts and who is on part-time or full-time contracts. This allows patterns to be identified.

I accept there may be concerns in smaller companies but I do not see why the Government cannot table amendments stating it wants something similar to what Senator Bacik has sought in companies with more than 150 employees. The Minister could argue he does not want to have the information from the particular companies published in reports but that it could amalgamated for a sectoral analysis at a future point. It is very important that we gather the information so we can identify the patterns.