Lynn Ruane (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I thank all present for their attendance and very positive contributions. It is a real sign that we are learning from the mistakes we have been speaking about for years in terms of people being silenced, victims not being empowered and cover-ups for perpetrators for whatever reason, whether it is reputation or because a culture has crept in. I will try to address some of the points made.

Senator McGreehan spoke about how the law should always weigh in favour of the victim. That is very true but, unfortunately, it is not what has happened in Ireland and elsewhere. Many people do not even get to access the law in any shape or form because non-disclosure agreements are being offered even at the point of making a complaint, before any internal investigation to actually find a resolution or who is at fault. NDAs are sometimes introduced at the earliest possible point of a complaint.

I was delighted to hear Senators Sherlock and Gavan refer to unions because the unions play such an important role on this issue because it is a workers' rights issue but, unfortunately, a culture has crept in. While carrying out our research we encountered instances where the union representative suggested a non-disclosure agreement might be the right course of action so that the person can move on. That shows how much it has crept into the psyche in terms of it being normal in the context of settlements. It goes back to many of the comments regarding severance and settlements and how there may be a need for NDAs in settlements. This is not the case. Settlements can be made without non-disclosure agreements. There may be a need for a confidentiality clause regarding how much was paid and such logistics but definitely not with regard to covering up a crime. There is no legislative framework in the Bill with regard to the use of NDAs but there has to be legislation that addresses anything being done to cover up a crime. The very principle of this is that we need to make sure we create legislation that does not facilitate the covering up of crime.

I welcome the significant stakeholder support we have had on this issue, such as from the unions. The more we talk about this issue, the more we will empower unions and various representatives in different sectors who want to see a change to this to have a voice and a platform to bring that about. We are beginning to consider the issue and call it out as being wrong.

Senator Seery Kearney spoke about who should absorb blame. As a victim of sexual assault outside the workplace, it is my belief that there is something collective when people share a history of trauma, in whatever way that may be. In the months leading up to this debate, I, as a person who has experienced trauma, have had to read many instances of the use of NDAs and many case studies and I feel connected to that. No Member of the House has suggested that any person who has had to sign an NDA should absorb the blame. I think this Chamber has sent a good message today that those who had to sign an NDA should not absorb that blame but, rather, quite rightly, it is the perpetrator who should absorb it.It showed the power of an industry to weed out perpetrators instead of protecting their reputation so that there is not an incident in a newspaper, court hearing or on social media. I would rather be known as the person who risked getting rid of someone who had tenure in a university and risk the lawsuit for sacking him. I would want the reputation of standing up to that. We should absorb the blame.

Ifeoma Ozoma co-sponsored a Bill in California. She is an amazing woman who took a case against Pinterest about the use of a non-disclosure agreement. When we talk about the international context, those big tech companies that she is challenging are based here and contributions today acknowledged that. They have that culture of the misuse of non-disclosure agreements.

Senator Malcolm Byrne mentioned going further than just sexual harassment. The Bill goes further than that and all of the nine grounds of discrimination would be captured within it. I am using sexual harassment and discrimination to make it understandable and accessible to the people who hear us talk about it.

Senator Currie spoke about whistleblowers and workplace culture and how she knows friends who have signed this and come to it from that personal point of view. We have never carried out research so I welcome research. People are afraid to speak about it. I had to ring three people today who know that they have inspired this legislation over the last few years to tell them not to panic if, at any stage, it looks like I am going to give it away. I will not because it is traumatising. They feel that fear. We have started on this research and have a small sample. We have to find a way to carry out that research adequately because behind that silence is widespread use of non-disclosure agreements. We need to figure out how to break past that silence and fear. One woman said that she cannot speak and asked what if she loses her mortgage or is sued, since she could not afford to pay her bills. Those are people's real fears.

Senator Eugene Murphy mentioned that men are affected too. Many men have contacted us. There was a pattern in the sample that contacted us. They were men who were bullied in the workplace after highlighting and calling out a discrepancy in a financial issue or such and then later had to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

Senator Flynn mentioned that people are being victimised two, three, four or five times.