Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank colleagues for their contributions, both at yesterday's session and today. Essentially the debate we are having now deals with nearly all the amendments. There are amendments at the end dealing with reporting, but essentially there are groups of amendments proposing the same thing with the four different Acts we are seeking to extend.

I had nothing to do with ordering the business and the allocation of debating time in the Seanad. I would be more than happy to come back to the Seanad to discuss the public health measures because there seems to be a very understandable appetite to discuss those measures. The Bill before us, while very important, is straightforward in that it seeks an extension to the ability to make these regulations. It is not so much about the underlying Acts themselves as extending the time periods. I would be very happy to come back to the Seanad to discuss the impact of the regulations that have been put in place and to discuss the underlying four Acts that were amended, if colleagues would like to do that.

As I said yesterday, the powers we are discussing are draconian. They do not sit well with me and they should not sit comfortably in any healthy democracy. I do not believe they would sit well with any Member either. They must be treated with considerable caution.

Regarding the variants of concern we are dealing with, the so-called Indian variant was referenced earlier. It is significantly more contagious than even the B117, or UK, variant which itself is significantly more contagious than the previous strains we dealt with. The UK is experiencing some worrying levels of infection and rises in cases, which we are watching very closely. With possible localised outbreaks and the need for targeted measures over the coming months, unfortunately the ability to regulate for public health measures is one that we need.

Based on our current trajectory, our hope is that we will not need to impose any new measures. It is about a sustainable unwinding of the existing measures but we need to do that carefully and in a way that hopefully will mean we will not need to reimpose the measures again. This extension is being framed around being able to sustainably unwind the measures we have in place. As I said to the House yesterday, because of the great effort by the people to get behind the public health measures that have been regulated for, the Government is meeting on Friday morning in a very positive environment. The trajectory of the disease has remained stable even in light of quite significant unwinding of restrictions and the continuing unwinding of those restrictions in coming weeks and months.

The timing of the measures is also relevant. The time periods requested are continuing to reduce. For example, the initial duration sought by both Houses from the previous Government was eight months. There was then an extension for a further seven months. After the seven-month extension we are now asking for an additional five months and the sunset clause will be three months. It has gone from eight months to seven to five to three, which is a trajectory we would all like to see. None of us wants to see these powers in operation for much longer.

Before I come to the points made by various Senators, I would like to speak about the substance of the Bill. Various points were made about Covid, vaccinations and so forth. The substance of the legislation and the substance of nearly all the amendments relate to timing. I listened very carefully to what colleagues said yesterday and I reflected on it overnight. I cannot accept the amendments for the reasons we discussed yesterday. For example, some of them seek to move the November date forward to September, and others to July. The public health view is that we need to be able to access these measures in late autumn and early December. While there is no right date, we feel 9 November is a suitable date at which point I hope we do not need to seek any further extension.

While I will not accept any of the amendments, I commit to colleagues to seek approval from Government in the very near future this week to amend the Bill on Committee Stage in the Dáil to allow for just one extended sunset clause. Essentially, we would have the five-month extension now, which is needed. We need a way to sustainably unwind the measures that are in place. I think most, if not all, colleagues will agree that we cannot just get rid of them all. Then there would be an option, which I dearly hope is never needed, which again would require agreement and would require a resolution of the Seanad, to extend for another three months. I hope we do not need that. I do not want to be back here seeking that from colleagues. Regardless, I will seek Government approval. As it requires Government to change a decision, I will need Government agreement on it.

At the end of that first three-month extension, the Act would fall. If we find ourselves in the position, which we all dearly hope we do not, whereby we need some targeted public health measures beyond February 2022, we would introduce another Bill and put it through the important safeguards that the legislative process brings.

It is a substantial change. It is based on the debate we had yesterday, reflecting on the points that were very well made. These are extraordinary powers and they should not be powers the Government has in the background all the time. They are specifically to deal with Covid. The legislation specifies that the measures must be linked to Covid and must be proportionate. There have been several legal challenges. Anyone is free to challenge whether they are linked to Covid or whether they are proportionate. There are several cases before the courts, some of which have been ruled on and others of which have been withdrawn. Senator Mullen mentioned religious services, which I will return to shortly. That, for example, is a live case before the courts.

I hope colleagues will accept that. It is a substantial change but I cannot introduce the amendment here, unfortunately, because there was not time for today's session. However, I am committing to seek Government approval to amend it on Committee Stage in the Dáil. My understanding is that it would then come back to them Seanad as an amended Bill and we can debate it again.

I think we have covered the issues that Senator Keogan raised relating to the timing of September rather than November and whether the measures will be proportionate. I believe the measures have been proportionate, as evidenced by the fact that when the number of cases rose we moved up the levels and when the number of cases reduced we began to unwind the measures as quickly as public health experts deemed safe. Therefore, the measures have moved in proportion to the level of risk that Covid has posed to us.

While I believe the various accusations Senator Mullen made are unfounded, I understand his frustration and fully accept that I made a commitment to him. Following that, I sought advice from the Attorney General, which I received.It is being considered by the Department. I regret not being able to get back to the Senator more quickly. It was complicated by the fact that the matter was before the courts. I accept that I made a commitment. I did so in good faith and it has been followed up on. I accept that the Senator has not yet got the reply, to which he has every right.

I had a very productive meeting with Archbishop Martin on the issue of religious services. We teased out various issues with regard to what can and cannot happen under the current public health measures. It is important to note that this point is now becoming moot. People can again attend religious services and such services can be held. That is very important for an awful lot of people in this country.