Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators Bacik and Sherlock for this Bill. I thank the Labour Party in general for its work in this area. I am glad to have a chance to be part of this discussion but I am probably more glad to be able to listen to the discussion, for once. Without a doubt, we are all supportive of the need to introduce change in this area as quickly as possible. I had a great chance just to sit back and listen to everybody's personal stories and the stories relayed to them. Everybody knows somebody who has been touched by miscarriage or a stillbirth after the long journey to try to have a family in the first place and all the complications that go with that. Some people have been very lucky on that journey while some have been very unlucky. Everyone's story is different, and everyone is affected differently. It is important when bringing forward legislation and having these discussions that we try to capture all that as best we can. I am glad we have had a really good conversation here tonight. It will not complete the legislative journey but it will certainly have been a major contributor. I thank both of the Senators for introducing the Bill and giving us an opportunity to discuss it.

A couple of issues arise. We can all understand that the loss is absolutely devastating for anybody who has been in any of the scenarios described. I am aware of the time invested by those who want to have a baby. They go to great lengths but, for whatever reason, it might not happen for them. We have to try to find ways to make the journey easier for everybody, including in respect of dealing with the sorrow and joy and trying to find the time. Over the years, we have made improvements to give people more time when they are successful in starting a family but there is so much more we need to do. I am conscious that this discussion has been going on for many years. It certainly came to the fore again with the legislation that was passed in New Zealand. It was a welcome boost and an example to many other countries. We are here to discuss a Bill that goes further than that, and rightly so. I am glad we are doing that.

Many referred to secrecy and the inability of families who are going through what I have described to have the conversation. There may be familial or social reasons for this but they certainly should not be based on one's job or employment. Through legislation, we are trying to make a change to ensure people will not be afraid to have a conversation with an employer, boss, manager, supervisor or colleague or will not shy away from it because of fear over what will happen afterwards. People wonder whether they will miss out on a promotion or not get the job in the first place. Other such scenarios arise. These should not be part of one's thinking. Sadly, we are aware that they are. It is only through legislation, good practice, consultation, advice, guidance for employers and the associated directions that we will change this. We have made great strides but we have a long way to go.

I can see from the correspondence I received in the past couple of days that people are still afraid to have this conversation at work or to ask for time off. People will admit, however, that the majority of employers are in a good space and try and want to do the right thing. Some might not be able to have the conversation themselves or find it very awkward but they certainly want advice and guidance. They come to us and employment agencies to get that advice and guidance. Very often, legislation is what is needed to pave the way and really set a mark. I am glad that all of us, across all parties, are committed to legislation. Both the Tánaiste and the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy O'Gorman, got permission from the Cabinet to move forward with legislation in this area. We are certainly not opposing the Bill tonight. Senator Bacik will understand that we cannot agree with everything. We agree on the principle and what we want to achieve overall. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, will commission research on this and there will be consultation on it to move on with this journey.

Let me address some of the issues regarding which we have concerns. In this regard, Senator Bacik mentioned the structure of the legislation. In her opening speech, she was clear and honest about the fact that this is an attempt to move things forward. She is not claiming that everything is perfect. We are not claiming to know everything either but we want to tease this through and engage in the process as quickly as possible to try to get where we want to go. We can certainly support the principle of the legislation but we need to try to deal with the format and structure.

The Government feels that stand-alone legislation is merited. Dedicated legislation is warranted to address the matter of reproductive health and to meet the need for time off, paid leave, additional unpaid leave or whatever else is required by people who have had a miscarriage or stillborn child. We would like to work with the House on that and ascertain how we can make progress. Most legislation in this area is stand-alone legislation.

We do not believe the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 is the appropriate legislative mechanism to deal with the policies regarding miscarriage or reproductive healthcare. Existing compassionate leave arrangements are legislated for in specific Acts. The Carer's Leave Act and the family provisions such as the Parental Leave Acts of 1998 and 2019 all had an individual journey because they required their own research, evidence, consultation and guidance to get them absolutely right.

The Organisation of Working Time Act was to provide for the implementation of the European working time directive. It sets out an employee's maximum working hours and entitlements to minimum rest periods and a minimum period of paid annual leave but it was not designed to be the instigator of new policies or to set out the terms and conditions regarding specific forms of compassionate leave. While it can be adjusted to recognise other policy changes, we do not believe it is the legislation to use. That is not a criticism; we just believe it is better to have stand-alone legislation. I will be happy to work with the Senators on that. As this Bill progresses, it will probably give us an opportunity to develop our thinking in this regard and to work it out together. That is what the Tánaiste wants to do because our Department recognises it is important from an employment point of view, but it might not need to be led through employment legislation. More than likely, it will be an equality matter. The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, wants to lead off on that and has got permission to do so.

To be absolutely clear, it is only a question of the structure; it is not about the principle. The Government is on the same page as everybody else here. It is a matter of how we can proceed appropriately and make sure we address all the various scenarios and deal with everyone's concerns and hurt.

I want to be fair. We have had this discussion before when dealing with other legislation in the Seanad. Senator Sherlock introduced the statutory sick pay Bill. We had the same conversation in that regard and asked for a little more time. I am aware that we are asking for a lot of trust from the Opposition when we say we are with it on a journey and a principle but that we need a little time. This is what we are doing with this Bill. When dealing with the statutory sick pay Bill, I stood here and asked for six or seven months. I am conscious that the six months was probably up at the end of April or during May but the legislation is nearly ready to introduce to the House. We honoured our commitment and we will bring the legislation before the House. The same commitment is being made regarding the Bill before us.

We must recognise that many employers do the right thing, try to get it right, have the conversation with their colleagues and determine what is suitable. I received an email from a friend this week who explained to me that he or she sat down with an employee and agreed that, for a miscarriage, a week of paid leave was appropriate, and that if more time were needed, it would be unpaid. They were able to have the conversation, tease out the matter together and review the decision afterwards to see whether the right approach was taken. Everybody in the working environment benefits because the organisation now has proposals for dealing with these circumstances. We like to see employers and employees having these conversations and developing a culture that respects both the employer and employee and the importance of both. It is a question of legislation to lead off on this.The reason I reference businesses and the different approaches by employers is that the majority want to do it. Many of us know from talking to small business owners with a low number of employees that they find it difficult when it comes to the financial aspect of paid leave. They are supportive and would like to do the right thing but some businesses cannot afford to do that. That is why when we bring forward legislation which states it is to be paid by the employer, we have to have strike a balance with the State supporting employers who cannot do that. If we agree we want to make reproductive health leave available in a caring way, we have to have a straightforward, honest conversation with those businesses. We accept many can afford to do it and should step up; others need assistance. As we are having these conversations similarly regarding the statutory sick pay scheme, a scheme is to be put in place and likewise we will see changes here. However, we need to have that conversation with employers and find the genuine ones who cannot and we need to step up and support them through State supports, which we would do with the minimum wage as well. Thankfully, the majority of companies are able to handle that and bring it forward.

We need a full regulatory impact of legislation such as this. There is no point in imposing this on anybody. We need to bring everybody with us on that journey. We have achieved a lot in this House over recent years when it comes to strengthening legislation relating to employees and working conditions. We have done it in conjunction with our social partners and I accept that is the intention Labour has here but I ask that we spend a bit of time doing that. That consultation and research is what it is about.

Others went through some parts of the Bill we have issues and concerns with. Any time a Bill is brought forward, changes are needed. We are committed to compassionate leave. There is currently no statutory leave entitlement for parents for pregnancy for less than 24 weeks. We want to change that and are committed to changing it. There is no statutory entitlement for any workers for any bereavement or compassionate leave, including pregnancy loss. We have to tease that through and have that conversation. Bereavement leave can be provided for in an employment contract. Some do that; some do not. Some do it in an ad hocor unplanned way and look after each other. We have that in local businesses, but it is not possible in other organisations. Others do it by way of custom, practice and common decency. That is common in our businesses and is something I am proud of. Other cases fall to an employer's discretion.

It should not have to be an awkward conversation. It should not be about the woman going through this or her partner having to ask or bring up the conversation or being afraid of having the conversation and thinking about it. They should know the legislation and guidance are there to protect them and that is what we want to try to achieve.

This is an area the Government wants to work on with all Members. I get a strong sense we are all on the same space on that. I thank everybody for their commitment and for sharing their personal stories and stories of the people they represent. We know there are many people out there who have been hurt a lot and the least we can do is try to ease that pain a little bit. It does not mean we can deal with all situations that are there because the sorrow for some is something we cannot get in and help.

Senator O'Loughlin touched on the number of men in the Chamber. We are glad to be here and to be part of the conversation but we can never feel what women are going through. We try to understand it and we research it. I am lucky to be a parent of four young kids at home. We can understand a lot of it but we can only be part of that conversation. We have to work with women on that to make sure we get it right and that is why we are glad to be here and contribute. As a Minister of State with responsibility for employment law along with the Tánaiste, I am happy for our Department to play its part working alongside the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the other Departments that have a role in this. We will be able to continue this conversation over the weeks and months ahead.