Stephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Acting Chairperson for that. I thank colleagues very sincerely for their contributions, ideas and challenges which are essential. It is fair to say that none of us want this Bill. This is a deeply unwelcome Bill. I remember sitting almost exactly where Senator McDowell is right now, when I was debating this Bill with the then Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, and I described the powers as draconian. I still think they are draconian. I think this Bill is draconian. There is no question about it. Legislation and powers like this should never sit easily with anyone in a democracy and they should certainly never sit easily in our Republic. We must handle them with the utmost care and caution. They do not sit easily with me in my Department. I doubt they sit easily with any Member of this House or the Dáil, nor should they.

They are necessary for what will hopefully be a very short period of time, which is why I stand here proposing them and ask the House to support them. They must be used very carefully. I have taken notes from, I hope, all speakers. I may have missed some pieces and I apologise if I have. There were a number of broad questions, one of which was on the timing and whether 9 November is right. I think there was a suggestion for the end of June, the start of July, September, November. I do not think there is a right answer. There is no correct date. The date of 9 November is no more correct than a week or two before or after it. We did check with public health advice in terms of the broad timing of this measure. How much time do we believe we need given where we are at with the epidemic, the variants, international travel and, critically, the vaccine programme?

The view from public health advice was that we need to be able to exercise public health measures of the type that are covered here into late autumn-early winter. Hence the start of November is the time being proposed. As I have said, it is because of a variety of different factors. One is to do with what stage we will be at with the vaccines. Another is the variants. This week, as Senators will understand, we are looking closely at the Indian variant, what it is doing in the UK and its potential transmission here. Public health advice pointed out that around that time there will be a mass movement back indoors. I have no doubt, unless something unforeseen happens, people will be indoors anyway by that stage. People will be back in restaurants, in pubs and each other’s houses. Indoor life will continue but as we move into early winter, we all move back indoors, and we close the doors. It is the public health view that late autumn-early winter was around the time when one still might want to be able to exercise these sorts of public health measures.My hope is that we do not have to exercise any of them but if we do, they are lighter touch measures like having to wear masks in particular higher-risk environments or if there are local outbreaks or local outbreaks of variants. There may be more variants coming or variants the vaccines do not work as well on. That is the big question. We are always asking in terms of these variants.

The second set of comments, questions and challenges was around impact and proportionality, which is a critical question. The measures we are using are harsh and have caused huge hardship for people. There has been significant isolation, loneliness and mental health challenges for people. People have lost their loved ones, friends and family. Not only have they lost them but we have not been able to grieve properly those whom we have lost. It has been very difficult for so many people. I say that as somebody who buried my 102-year-old granny very recently. It has been brutal for people so why have these? It is because the other side of the human rights argument is that people have a right to health. People have a right to be protected from the pandemic. If we look back to the first roll-out of measures like quarantine and the kind of public health measures that were deployed many years ago to prevent the damage these pandemics or epidemics do, we can see that a human rights argument was used by public health doctors to say that people have a right to be protected and kept safe as well so what we are always trying to do is balance those rights and obligations. There are no easy answers and I do not think anyone has any monopoly of wisdom on this. Obviously we have never dealt with anything like this and, please God, we will never have to deal with anything like it again but who knows?

Have we got everything right? Of course, not - there is no country or government that has got all of this right but the measures are working. If we look back from January to March or April, we can see that because of the extraordinary solidarity of the Irish people, Ireland went from having the highest rate to the lowest or one of the lowest in a very short period of time. We were one of the earliest European countries to open up primary and secondary education to in-school education for everybody. In spite of our healthcare system and incredible healthcare workers coming under enormous pressure, unlike a lot of other countries, our healthcare system was never overrun. We never ran out of beds or ventilators. We treated everybody and our survival rates in ICUs compared with a lot of other highly developed countries are very good. The measures have worked. In time, there will be look backs and analysis of how Ireland and other countries did. Our excess mortality rate is one of the lowest in Europe. The people who deserve credit for that are certainly not the Government. It is the Irish people who deserve credit for sticking with the measures but the measures work so while they are hard, at least we do know they have worked and Ireland has fared well relative to a lot of other countries. That is not to minimise the awful pain and suffering that has occurred but relative to a lot of the rest of the world, Ireland has done relatively well and it is partly because we can deploy these measures and deploy them very quickly when they are needed.

The Cabinet is meeting on Friday morning to discuss June and whether we can further relax as per what was signalled a month ago and what to do about July and August. We are entering that conversation in the most positive conceivable setting. Just a few months ago, when we were talking about the first easing of restrictions, we had analysis and projections that were very sobering indeed. It seemed very reasonable at the time. It was a case of "here's what happens if we have a R number of 1.2, 1.4 or 1.6. Here's what happens when you open the schools. The R number will go up. Here's what happens when you relax travel."What people have done is they have really backed the measures, taken care of each other and kept each other safe. We are ahead of the best-case scenario that we were shown at that time. Again, the credit for that lies with the Irish people but at least we know the measures work.

In terms of parliamentary scrutiny and safeguards, the Bill before the House has a very important provision, which is that the powers can only be extended by agreement of both Houses of the Oireachtas due to the sunset clause. In terms of the sequencing of Seanad time, I had nothing to do with that. I hope I turn up here regularly enough and if colleagues would like to debate the various issues raised, I am always happy to come in and debate those, listen to the ideas and the challenges and bring them back to Government and try to implement them.

Various measures were mentioned but as I am conscious of time, I will focus on the one that was mentioned most, which was the aviation sector and the digital green certificate. There will be an announcement, presumably after Cabinet on Friday as it is scheduled to be discussed at Cabinet on Friday. We are in a good position. The Government backs the digital green certificate. Essentially, what that will mean is that people who are fully vaccinated can travel, not only in the EU, but with partner countries outside the EU as well. That would include no home quarantine. That is really what people are looking for, namely, unimpeded travel.

The impact analysis of the vaccines is profoundly positive. I remember talking to very esteemed, very well experienced epidemiologists last August or September, who were telling me they doubted we would have any vaccines of any impact within two or three years, but that maybe within five years we might get a vaccine that would be useful against this, but we might never get one. They referenced HIV-AIDS and all sorts of other viruses and pandemics that have occurred. To be in the position we are in now is extraordinary. One of the things we can do with that is fully support and join up to the digital green certificate and my hope is that will happen as quickly as possible. That will have a very powerful and positive effect on the aviation sector. I know the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, is engaging directly with the sector and that the Ministers, Deputies Michael McGrath and Paschal Donohoe, are also looking at economic supports because it has been a brutal time for the sector.