Seanad debates

Friday, 16 October 2020

Commission of Investigation (Mother and Baby Homes and certain related Matters) Records, and another Matter, Bill 2020: Committee and Remaining Stages

 

10:30 am

Photo of Alice-Mary HigginsAlice-Mary Higgins (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 5, between lines 4 and 5, to insert the following: “(2) The provisions set out in this section shall apply as if the specified Minister were a reference to the Minister and the Agency and the Authority.”

I regret that last amendment. It was unfortunate that the Minister did not agree to it.

Amendments Nos. 19 and 20 are related and both address what I think might be a mistake in the drafting. I am very concerned about the potential implications. This is not something anyone has lobbied me on; it is just a concern I have. Section 4 of the Bill states: "Section 45 of the Act of 2004 shall apply in relation to the database and related records as if the reference, in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), to specified Minister were a reference to the Agency." I am a little concerned about the reference to the database and related records. This is the problem of splitting and having some of the records with the Minister and some with others. I am concerned. Section 45 of the Act of 2004 relates to the functioning of tribunals on some of the issues that have been looked at in the course of the Mother and Baby Homes Commission. For example, there may be a tribunal in the future regarding the vaccination trials, which is one of the commission's remits and areas of work. This seems to nail down this section. I would like the Minister and the agency to both be responsible for this.

The issue also relates back to my previous amendments in which I wanted the Minister to have a copy of the database. It would be crucial for the Minister to have a copy of the database and related records. The Minister has indicated that one of the things he will address in the Dáil is ensuring there is one copy of the materials in one location. It is also very important that, in the case of a future tribunal, there would be one place it could go and access all the relevant and necessary documents. I am concerned about this fragmented approach and what it might mean for the efficacy and functioning of a future tribunal. Even in the 2004 Act, which is the Act containing section 45, it is envisaged that a future tribunal may take place to dive into any of the issues that were part of the terms of reference for the original commission. The vaccination trials are key but there are other issues about which there may need to be tribunals, such as forced labour and inappropriate deaths. I ask the Minister to clarify how that will work. If we do end up, as we must, with all the documents in one place, is that where the tribunal will go? Will it have to seek two different locations? There is nothing in section 45 of the Act of 2004 that precludes copies being made. Copies are fine. It is okay to have copies if they are appropriately minded and cared for elsewhere. There is an aversion to duplication which we might need to move past.

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