Jerry Buttimer (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State. It is important that we allow local government to recover its status, its authority and the role and functions of the council. To remind the Members opposite, I could mention the former Ministers, Noel Dempsey and a great man from Waterford, Martin Cullen. To go forward, we must remember the past. That is the important point.

This debate is extensive. It concerns the funding of local government, which is not a new topic or phenomenon. It is one that we must grapple with, given that we have not addressed it yet. We are still taking the same chicken-and-egg approach. There must be a national conversation about the future of local government. We had the Putting People First programme and other programmes. Speaking as a former councillor and someone who very much believes in the local, it is critical that a constitutional convention approach be taken to the question of local government. It could consider the question of financing in terms of the rate support grant, local property tax and how local services are funded. Based on the publication of the Moorhead report, it could also consider the roles, duties and remuneration of councillors and, as Senator Ó Domhnaill alluded to, the role and powers of the executive. It is time that we had a real conversation about this. I am not afraid of it. I am not worried about what the future holds. If we are to be serious about taking a non-partisan and non-adversarial political view on this matter, then let us be real about local government. People are leaving in part because of pay and conditions and in part because of increased responsibilities, reduced powers, more of their time being consumed and their inability to achieve a work-life balance.

Dr. Aodh Quinlivan has spoken about local democracy being weak. In one of his scholarly articles, he wrote that we did not have local government, but local administration. I do not necessarily agree with all of that, but it forms part of the debate that we need to have. We should not have that debate in a chamber like this one, though, given that we are just focused on one or two aspects. Instead, the debate must go beyond here. We are setting up a citizens' assembly in January to consider the topic of gender. I ask that the Minister of State discuss the assembly's extension with the Taoiseach, the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, his Department and the Minister of State, Deputy English.

I will make two further points about the Moorhead report that the Minister of State would expect me to make. There has been considerable commentary, with members of LAMA and the AILG campaigning strongly on this matter. We support and stand with them, not because they are our electorate, but because many of us have been councillors. We understand the frustration, workload, lack of devolved power and continuous battle that councillors face. Perhaps we made a mistake abolishing all town councils. In Cork city, the representative ratio is 1:6,800; in France, it is 1:1,200; in Austria, it is 1:1,210; and in Germany, it is 1:1,350. The south west ward where I live and that I represented has expanded to nearly half a Dáil constituency. It has more people than some parts of rural Ireland, yet the level of service expected and demanded has remained the same. New councillors were not added to the expanded city council in Cork. I will not fight that argument now, but I will fight over the representative ratio.

I will make an honest plea, namely, that all of us as politicians support a real payment to councillors. Let us do it once and for all. It will be a ten-day wonder in the media and a five-day wonder on "Prime Time", Joe Duffy's "Liveline" and other talk radio programmes, but we will get better local government and people who will stay in local government and represent others. That is what we want. Local government representation should be full time, with councillors paid proper salaries. I believe it was Senator Ó Domhnaill who suggested that councillors should do X and Oireachtas Members should do Y. The dual mandate has not worked because people do not differentiate.It has not worked because people do not differentiate. Then there are Members of the Oireachtas who are piggybacking on the "all politics is local" maxim. Let us be real. It is important that we pay councillors a full-time salary. Putting People First was the document. Along with my earlier request, we should look at having a Constitutional Convention-type citizens' assembly to discuss local government and let all of us not be afraid to support paying councillors proper remuneration. Together, not adversarially, or by Senators picking each other off one by one and going back to councillors, we should work collectively with the Department and with the Moorhead report.

The Minister of State has had a battle with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and others, but that Department does not have all the answers and it is not always right.