Michael McDowell (Independent) | Oireachtas source

I am not. The Minister himself said that the majority of the interview panel could be judges. I do not think Deputy Ross had that in mind at all. The Minister says this could be justified because it might be appropriate to interview a District Court judge who was seeking appointment to the superior courts. Amendment No. 97da, which we have just voted down, states "No statement under this Part shall provide for the interviewing of any applicant who is a serving judge in the Superior Courts in respect of any application to the Commission by him or her in respect of any vacancy in a judicial office in any of those courts." I was not talking about District Court judges or even Circuit Court judges, but about High Court judges, Court of Appeal judges, and Supreme Court judges. I cannot see why they should be interviewed for appointment to vacancies for posts in which they were already ex officio qualified to serve.

On the amendment we are now discussing, the Minister said he might consider some amendment on Report Stage along the lines of what has been proposed here, to limit the interviewing of would-be appointees to the bench, or serving judges who are would-be appointees to other positions on the bench, in matters of law or legal controversy including constitutional interpretation. It continually reopens the question, which I ask the Minister to bear in mind, of what they are going to be interviewed about. Will they be asked if they play golf, are in the local GAA club or if they have ever been in the Society of St. Vincent de Paul? What questions could they be asked which would be pertinent to whether they should be appointed or whether, for example, a Court of Appeal judge should be made an ordinary judge of the Supreme Court? I cannot imagine what questions could be asked of them at an interview. I am not keen on the idea of a majority of the interview panel being judges but even if that were the case, I cannot imagine what questions they could ask which would be of much assistance. Would they ask them how they get on with their fellow judges, or if they would be a team player in the Supreme Court? What answers would they expect? They would hardly say that they are not team players, or that they are difficult and very independent. I do not see how those kinds of questions would yield any useful fruit. I ask the Minister to completely reconsider the process of interviewing superior court judges at all.

On my second point, I may have unduly narrowed the scope of this amendment, which I did not intend to do. Amendment No. 97db proposes a new section, section 53, which would apply to both serving judges and new applicants. That is important to emphasise, because it would be wrong to ask even practicing solicitors or barristers, who are not judges, questions which would require them to disclose their attitudes on judicial issues in advance. It is wrong from a number of points of view. It would send a signal that the recommendation of the committee depended on the way in which they responded to such issues, and if, for instance, an applicant was of a conservative disposition, it would encourage them to portray themselves as more liberal than they were for fear of offending interviewers who they suspected of having more liberal views than their own. That is why this amendment is hugely important, and cannot be diluted in any significant way. The group of people being applied to do not have discretion on issues such as liberalism or conservatism, and no interview process should allow for examination of applicants on those issues. Even if they were disregarded by the commission in the end, the impression would be given to applicants that they were being grilled on their political and legal outlook in advance, and that the shortlist would be composed based on how they performed on such issues. This is an important amendment and I will have to push it to a vote.