Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I am happy that Senator Ó Ríordáin and his party have brought forward this concept, but unless funding is provided from somewhere else, schools will literally not have the lights on and will be unable to pay their bills. As a society, we would love to see everything at this level being paid for centrally and without the need for voluntary contributions or fundraising, in which we are all involved, whether it be on hospital committees or charities in our communities in the areas of health, education, sport and so on. I speak as somebody who is in his 16th year on a board and sixth school board. This is my tenth year as chairman. I also spent nine years on the board of the non-fee paying school I attended as a pupil and happen to be chairman of a few charities, although I know that is not the import of the Bill. I know many principals and chairpersons through my work as a chairman. Last week I attended the annual meeting of the Joint Managerial Body, JMB, which represents school chairpersons and principals in the voluntary sector. The Minister also attended the meeting and made a very interesting, useful and helpful address in response to the address made by the president.

To my knowledge, there is no school that excludes anyone. As somebody who has been a member of school boards, I know that they do not try to intimidate or put pressure on parents if they are unable to pay. I accept that on certain occasions one knows people cannot pay. Conversely, on certain occasions, one knows people just do not want to pay. They have the means to do so, but they are not particularly interested in doing so and if they can get away with not paying, so be it. Then there are the people who will fundraise, pack bags and get involved in organising sponsored fun runs, walks and buy a brick campaigns to carry out works and build things for which the Department will not pay, whether it be a sports hall or various other things.

I know from school principals that there are areas where the figure for voluntary contribution is less than 20%. That is the way it is, but they do not treat anybody differently. Perhaps Senator Ó Ríordáin has personal experience where that is the case, but I certainly do not. By and large, a school board comprises a very compassionate group of volunteers. Typically, in the voluntary sector there are four trustee representatives who often are past parents or pupils. I am referring to two parent representatives who are selected by the parents' council. They are all trying to do what is the best for their school and leave it in a better state at the end of their three-year term on the board. If in the morning one were to ban the collection of charges or fees for anything, schools would not function. They would not be able to buy chemistry supplies, to pay their electricity bills, to buy paper for their photocopiers or repair the boiler when it breaks down. A boiler will never break down in July, it but will always break down in January, February and December.

It is important that we appreciate the work done by school boards and I am not saying the Bill does not do so. We acknowledge the voluntary aspect. Most principals are under enormous pressure to deliver in teaching and learning, but they must also be experts when it comes to burglar alarms, fire alarms, health and safety measures, child protection and human relations. A lot of work goes into being a school principal. I do not know whether Senator Ó Ríordáin sought the research, but I want to know the following. What percentage of the 700 secondary schools and primary schools seek voluntary contributions? What percentage in each of those schools make voluntary contributions? I want to receive anonymised data as I do not want schools to be identified. I think a lot of the figures sought are available. I want to know the money every school in the country receives from the non-governmental sector. Let us quantify the figures. In this day and age there is nothing better than receiving a larger cheque or an electronic funds transfer. Very few schools squander money or spend it in areas in which they do not want to spend it. It is always the case - I include the fee paying sector - where resources are scarce and there is a long list of things one wants to do that one prioritises. There are certain things that absolutely have to be done and certain things one would like to do if one managed to receive a few bob from somewhere. There are other things that take time when one must wait for funding under the summer works scheme and departmental sanction. I would like to see the figure for how many schools seek voluntary contributions and the average amount paid.

Reference was made to admission charges. I know of a school that charges an admission fee mainly because of the administrative burden involved. Let us say a school has 90 places and 800 apply, half of whom are not that serious about attending. If there was no admission fee, people would apply to 20 schools with no real intention of attending 15 or 16 of them. The fee is refundable if someone is offered a place but does not take it up. Charging a fee deters those who are not that interested in attending a school. It deters them from applying to 15 or 20 schools. Nobody is trying to stop anyone from availing of an education. Certainly no one on a school board is trying to do so; neither is the principal nor school staff. It is important that we realise it is a wonderful concept and idea that schools should never have to fundraise and that all of the money they will ever need for anything should come from the State. However, until we reach that stage, there are short and medium-term issues with this legislation. My party and I are more than willing to let it progress to the next Stage where it will be teased out and examined and I hope some of my points will be considered. I am not my party's spokesperson on education, albeit I am reasonably familiar with a lot of education matters, including issues which arise in transition year. In some cases school tours are quite expensive such that some schools organise them, while others do not.It would be fantastic if the Department was willing to pay for them all but I am not sure that it is ready to do so.

We need to tease out this matter. I am not against what is proposed because it would be wonderful, and no school wants to be dealing with cash, collecting voluntary contributions or sending out reminders. I know of schools in more middle-class areas where the voluntary contribution take-up rate is 60% or 65%. Even in those areas, people are not willing to or, in many cases, are not able to, pay. The house and the car might look nice but there could be huge debts.

I commend the Labour Party and Senator Ó Ríordáin on the points they have put forward and on the Bill. However, I feel obliged to point out on behalf of people who have served on school boards that it is more complicated than just clicking our fingers to abolish fees in the morning. I am not suggesting that the Senator is saying this. I hope this can happen sooner rather than later but until it does it is not permissible unless the money comes from somewhere else.