Ray Butler (Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I have listened to the debate as a person who has passionately represented the self-employed since I came here seven and a half or eight years ago. I was told at a committee meeting at the time that it would not be viable to put a stamp in place for the self-employed to give them benefits. This year, for the first time, a self-employed person will be entitled to a jobseeker's payment, and I hope in the next budget we will be able to look at sick pay. The Minister has been excellent since she took over the portfolio in pushing for benefits for the self-employed.

Senator Nash has a strong track record in the area. Like the Minister, I am sympathetic to his Bill. We want to work with him and all the Members in the House because we saw what went on during the crash after the Celtic tiger when people who had been in bogus self-employment went looking for their entitlements. They were entitled to absolutely nothing and it was only because of the Minister of the day, Deputy Joan Burton, reducing thresholds that we could get some social protection for those people. They would have starved otherwise because of that bogus self-employment. We saw that in the construction game, the courier business and other areas. The courier business, in particular, is well known for this bogus self-employment, as people were given a job on the basis that they would be self-employed. They would have to look after their own books and get their own accountants. Although people may have been paid well, God forbid if anything went wrong, as they were on their own.

I spoke to the Minister at a social protection committee meeting about one matter. When a person gets a P45 or P60, we should be clearer about the benefits brought by a stamp. If we ask 90% of people what they are entitled to because of a stamp, they would not have a clue. We must educate people about what type of stamp they are paying and how much is coming from their wages as a result. We must also educate them on what entitlements come with this stamp. If people have to look for sick pay or social welfare, they would then know where to go. The information is usually printed on the corner of a P60 or P45 but one would need a magnifying glass to see it. That is if Mystic Meg was not required to find it in the first place. I acknowledge the Minister has overseen an advertising campaign from the Department on the entitlements that come with a stamp but we need to push this more so people will know it exactly. If they have the misfortune to find themselves in bogus self-employment, they will at least know to what they are entitled if something goes wrong. They are currently entitled to nothing and they would be out on their own. That might make them think.

Senator Nash is correct that people may have to take these jobs because there is no alternative. I have no problem in saying the Minister will sort this out. I have total faith in her because she is so passionate about self-employed people. She has done much over the past 12 or 18 months for them.Unfortunately, because of various provisions that are not legally binding we will have to oppose it tonight. However, we are passionate about what we want done for self-employed people, especially bogus self-employed people.