John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I will attempt to address as many of the issues as I can. Many of the issues raised were similar. Senator Murnane O'Connor outlined her support for what is contained in this Bill. There was an exchange of views, particularly between the Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil Senators, on what to do with the two additional seats. In one sense, the whole argument is moot because the commission issued a report and that is what the legislation is based on. The commission recommended the allocation of seats that is contained in this Bill.

The other discussion while interesting and while people will have different views on it was on the practice since independent commissions were introduced that the Oireachtas implements their boundary reports. Senator Buttimer knows more than most about the impact of boundary commission reports on electoral prospects. He correctly pointed out that there has never been a report by a boundary committee on electoral issues that has not produced some controversy.

Senator Mullen expressed criticism of the report, which he is entitled to do. He very legitimately pointed out that the last terms of reference could have had a curtailing effect, which is a fair point to make. He went on to make outrageous political comments about the membership of the commission. In terms of the membership, there is the Clerk of the Seanad, the Clerk of the Dáil, a judge, although I am not sure whether the person is still a judge or has retired, the Secretary General of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, and the Ombudsman. The Senator made all sorts of stupid comments on lobbying that had been made or individual submissions by MEPs, which is natural political theatre. We should remember that the people who were involved in drawing up the report are public servants of the highest standing and we cannot just throw those kinds of allocations around the House. I expected better from him. I have been friendly with him for years and I am surprised that he threw out such glib comments about what the commission recommended. It is very unfair to say that the terms of reference that the commission was given, which are prescribed in the 1997 Act, could have led it to a certain outcome. Perhaps the House and the other House should consider those terms of reference in the future. The latter comment is perfectly legitimate but the rest of his comments were pretty scurrilous and contemptible.

Senator Warfield and others spoke about what I call the two cold storage MEPs and what status they will have. I think Senator Grace O'Sullivan spoke about the entitlements given to the two people who would hold the positions. It is a matter for the European Parliament, ultimately, to decide. The system of election to the European Parliament differs from what we have in our local authorities and the Oireachtas. When somebody is elected, whether it is at local authority or national level, the moment the votes are counted he or she is elected. In the European Parliament, there is a notion of taking up one's seats, which is the point of initiation and does not occur until the first week in July when the new European Parliament will sit. There is already a differentiation between our system and the traditional European system. I have said it in the Dáil and I will say it here again, the two cold storage MEP solution is not ideal but it is by far the least worst option in the sense that it maintains our system of election. Our system of election is based on geographical constituencies at every level. To introduce a completely new system, whether it is a list, a national constituency or some people being elected geographically, and the then the two additional ones being elected on a national panel, would be to completely throw on its head everything that we have ever had in terms of an electoral system. That might be an argument to be had into the future. In the immediate run up to an election I do not think that would have been an appropriate course of action to take.

We await the European Parliament. Senator Higgins asked specifically about the powers and the position of these two MEPs. We would be hopeful, certainly well in advance of the election and bearing in mind there is a Council meeting towards the end of this month, that there would be an indication given, not just to Ireland but to the other 13 member states that are getting an extra allocation of MEPs, as to the status of those particular people and the position that they will hold in the interregnum when the UK still has not formally left the European Union.

Senator Warfield spoke about the order of election. What we are proposing here is something very similar to what happens in Seanad elections already, that there would be a complete counting of votes. If a person from a particular political party is the fourth person in Dublin and his or her party colleague is the fifth person, if the gap between the third and the fourth person is less than the number of votes to be distributed from the fifth person, the fifth person will be eliminated and that will determine the order of election. Therefore, the person who on the face of it might be finishing fourth could end up finishing second or third. We are talking about completing the electoral count to determine the order of election.

Senator Grace O'Sullivan mentioned the views of Professor Michael Gallagher, a person that I respect. He has proposed two completely separate counts of the same ballots. One would not have to be a legal expert on electoral politics to know that his proposal might pose some issues. The Senator also spoke about the d'Hondt allocation. Again, that would be a complete change from what our electoral process has generally been.

In response to Senator Boyhan, the Local Government (Dublin) Act is the legislation that broke up the old Dublin County Council. I am reliably informed that section 9 of the Act is the one that formally recognised Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin as counties within our legal definition of what a county is, and Dublin city as a separate city authority. All our European electoral Acts since recognise Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, South Dublin and Fingal as separate counties.

In terms of what was mentioned by Senators Ó Donnghaile and Higgins, I addressed the issue of facilities for the cold storage MEPs. I understand their reservations about the fear of removing certain rights that UK citizens who are resident in Ireland may have. I reassure the Senators that there is no question of people being removed from the register. That categorisation is already there under the letter D before the name. If this legislation was to be adopted, instead of getting a ballot paper for the local elections, European election and a plebiscite, say if one lived in Waterford or Limerick, these people would still get the ballot paper for the local elections and the plebiscite.We have always had a connection in this country, as in most jurisdictions, between citizenship, residency and voting rights. That is the firm view, notwithstanding the European court judgment Senator Higgins pointed to in regard to Gibraltar. That judgment was based on Britain's accession to the European Economic Community in 1972, following the initial discussions. Britain gave within its own legislative framework special status to what were termed in its legislation colonies and Commonwealth members, and as citizens of those areas would be treated as European Union citizens, the European decision was based on that. The issue here is somewhat different in that we are talking about Britain leaving the EU.

If there was a solid legal way of keeping British citizens' voting entitlements, I would be open to it. However, one of the premises of the treaties is that to vote for the European Parliament, one must be a citizen of the Union, and that means being a citizen of a member state of the Union. That is not to deny there are many British citizens living in the EU who have dual citizenship and who will retain that right. Many British people living in Ireland have Irish citizenship and will retain the right to vote, even if this legislation is passed. However, it is very much the advice to the Government from the Attorney General in terms of the treaties of the European Union that we cannot retain a system where there is a blanket open door, if one likes. By the way, this will have no effect whatsoever on the reciprocal arrangement between Britain and Ireland in regard to parliamentary elections, whereby Irish citizens living in Britain and British citizens living in Ireland have votes at parliamentary level nationally. The European treaties are different and our duty in this legislation is to uphold those treaties.