Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. To be clear, I do not direct committees as to what they should do. I ask and I suggest. I am delighted that, through the work of Deputy Ó Broin, the Joint Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government has gladly taken on this work. The committee asked to take it on. It has worked with us and is still doing so. I do not direct that committee - I ask and suggest that it does things. That did not happen in this case. The committee came forward itself. Senator Kelleher's committee, through its cross-party approach in both Houses, has also brought focus to the issue. It is by focusing on this matter that we can bring about the change that is needed. It is important that we do so.

It is also important that we address the issue of transient accommodation, which has been mentioned by a few speakers. Apart from the failures to spend the money in some cases, there has been a lack of engagement regarding transient facilities. Such engagement would help the ongoing conversation. The conversation in communities very often breaks down and the prejudice sets in because of the lack of proper transient facilities provided to accommodate and allow for people's desire to travel around. If we get that right, it will help us to secure more investment in permanent capital projects. People often object to what they think is going to happen rather than to what is actually happening. Senator Boyhan has identified cases, and I am aware of cases in my own community, of fabulous Traveller-specific accommodation which blends in very well, in which everyone works together and shares facilities and which works very well. There are great facilities out there about which we do not talk enough. If we could see more of that, people would buy into it and there would be fewer objections locally.

Senator Boyhan inquired as to who is driving this nationally. The Department is doing so. We set out the policy and set aside funding. Under existing legislation, it has to happen at local level. The Department and I are not hiding from the fact that I am responsible for getting this money spent. I will engage with local authorities as much as I can possibly can in respect of the different sites, as I have been doing for the past year or two at our weekly housing discussions and our housing summits. In the context of engagement, our housing delivery team also goes out to every local authority every week. We sit down and go through the provision of housing of every kind, including Traveller-specific accommodation. We try to cajole and encourage the local authorities into doing more. We ask why it is not being done and what is wrong. We discuss all the problems and offer all of the assistance we can from our technical team. We also go through planning issues. We are trying to encourage greater delivery and will continue to do so. We will use whatever powers we have under existing law, although these powers are limited. We will also see what comes forward in the expert panel's recommendations. We are not just going to wait until April for those recommendations, we are engaging on a weekly basis to try to get this money spent. This money was requested. The local authorities brought proposals to us and yet the money has been left sitting there.

Problem sites such as Spring Lane, which was mentioned, and some of those in Galway, are often left to one side or else the projects drag on for 20 or 25 years because they are difficult sites and because ongoing conversation is needed in respect of them. That is not acceptable. Problem sites should be sorted out but this requires focus from all stakeholders. I am not pointing the finger at anybody, but all the stakeholders need to sit down in a room and deal with the issue, rather than having a meeting this year and then coming back for another conversation in a year's time. We can only get some of these problems sorted out through intense negotiation. That is something we have to do.

Senator Conway referred to difficult issues requiring difficult solutions. The circumstances for the families involved are difficult. That is what we are trying to solve. They are extremely difficult circumstances which lead to many other complications that would not arise if the families were offered good housing solutions in the first instance. That is what we are trying to do. The point was made that it is very hard for Traveller families to avail of HAP or private rental accommodation. We can see that. When there were plenty of vacant houses a couple of years ago, in most places there was no problem in getting homes for people from a Traveller background to rent in the short term. When the pressure comes on, some people choose not to engage with Traveller families and will rent their houses to others. That is obvious; we can see it happening. We can also see it in the HAP figures. It is another matter on which we are focused.

Senator Warfield raised a couple of issues in respect of the shameful underspend. He is absolutely right. No one is disputing that. We want to ramp it back up and have the increased resources spent. Even though we knew that we would have problems spending the money, we allocated it in any event in order to try to make a mark. This budget has to increase every year. We are committed to increasing the capital and the current spend each year.

On the fire safety guidelines, it is very clear that they also apply to temporary sites. Those guidelines, which were in draft form for a number of years and which were being worked to by local authorities, will be finalised following on from the recent coroner's case and the associated recommendations. They are being issued as guidelines to all local authorities and apply to temporary sites as well as permanent sites. They relate to fire safety, overcrowding and so on. It is right that they now apply to temporary accommodation because it was often the case that, because a site was temporary, we were not allowed spend money on it or make changes to it. We have now got over that situation. It was happening in any event but it was made clearer by the recommendations.

Is the money being diverted to other projects? It absolutely can be. When money is not spent, it can be diverted to other projects. We try to do that. Local authorities often state, even towards the end of the year, that they will get the money spent. There is then no opportunity to reallocate it. We are trying to bring this forward to earlier in the year so that a decision to reallocate can be made earlier. The money is spent on housing. If money is not spent on a particular project this year, then funding for that project will be found for next year. It is not ring-fenced but we will find the money. A project is not left behind because funding was not drawn down this year. We encourage local authorities to draw it down as soon as possible but there are sites on which money needs to be spent where that spending is not happening. We are trying to make that happen. Again, if the money is not spent on Traveller-specific accommodation, it is still spent on housing which is available to everybody including Traveller families. When we cannot provide requested Traveller-specific accommodation, we work with Traveller families to find them other accommodation in the short term. We know that in many cases their aim is to get back to Traveller-specific accommodation. The money gets spent on housing. That is the first priority. We do not hand it back.

The Senator stated that we need to have a conversation. I absolutely agree. That is what the expert panel and its recommendations are about. Not everyone might like those recommendations, which might lead on to conversations, but we have to act and see where they bring us. There have been different suggestions here. Some have suggested that we should go national and others that we should stay local but, either way, we have to agree on a process that will deliver more suitable accommodation much faster and which will have an impact on the ground because that is what we are trying to do. I do not know what tangible differences will be suggested until I get the report. I am not going to second-guess it. We all have ideas and solutions. We have brought in the experts to look at legislation, at the system and at best practice and to make independent recommendations which we can then adopt and implement. That is the space we will be in for the next couple of weeks until we receive the report.

I have probably already touched on some of the issues Senator Kelleher raised. She is right with regard to the number of families on sites. That issue is not always easily solved. It leads to very complicated conversations. The best way to solve it is to accommodate any increase we think might occur in the number of families on the site when we are setting out new projects. We should have that honest conversation at the start, which we are not doing at the moment. We should try to predict the future. It is not that hard to do. It is just not recorded in the Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs. It might pre-empt that conversation if we could provide accommodation the capacity of which can be increased. There have been requests to extend some of the sites I have visited and it is just not possible in some cases. That also requires an honest conversation on all sides. I have sat down with groups in the past and have tried to have that honest conversation and get realistic expectations so that we can move on. When we are planning new facilities, there is no reason we cannot plan in a way that will accommodate increased families in the future.

The Senator asked about actions and sanctions. There really are no sanctions I can impose under existing law. We are limited in that respect. We try to work with local authorities and push them on. We will see what the expert panel brings forward, but I believe we need to move towards planning gains, planning communities, and encouragement. We need to show best practice, really good facilities and well-planned, well-managed and well-maintained sites. I have looked at some of these. They have caretakers on site who are doing great work and there are much better results and everyone is much happier. We want to make that happen on a larger scale. We will see what comes forward in the expert panel's report but, without a doubt, we want more action, not just talk. I accept that.

Senator Buttimer referred to the culture change, the mindset and how to drive change. We will use this independent expert panel to drive the necessary change in this area in the years ahead.

I believe I have covered almost everything. If I have not, I will come back to people. I look forward to working with Senators over the next six to eight weeks as we try to finalise our work in this area. The money allocated for this year represents an increase. If I believe we need to spend more, we will find more.