Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I will try to respond to all of the points made.

I thank Senator Reilly for tabling this timely and worthwhile motion. We are working on a policy document in conjunction with the Department of Health and hope to complete it soon. This is an important issue and I thank the Senator for his work on it. As he stated, the motion gives us an opportunity to discuss the matter and put forward ideas and ask questions. It also offers the Seanad a chance to make suggestions for inclusion in our policy document which is almost finished. We have noted the contributions made by Senators, but if they have further thoughts or ideas in the coming days or weeks, I ask them to bring them to my attention. The departmental officials accompanying me, Mr. Derek Rafferty and Mr. Alan Byrne, love to receive submissions. We are very keen to ensure our document will contain the best ideas. My Department, with the Department of Health and others, has put a significant amount of work into putting together a document on which all are agreed and which will facilitate what we want to do. The motion is timely and I thank Senator Reilly for tabling it and all Senators for their contributions. I will respond to the contributions made and outline what we are doing. I thank the groups which have engaged with us in the past 12 months or more in putting together the policy statement we are hoping to bring forward on 27 February which will set out our plan on housing options for an ageing population.

The policy document is about planning and actually making it happen. As Senator Dolan stated, it is not just about putting plans on paper. I have seen plenty of plans during the years. The Senator tried to identify the plans that had worked and those that had not. Putting together a plan that will not be used is a waste of people's time. I am glad that the Senator recognised the Action Plan for Jobs as a plan that had worked. It took a whole-of-government approach backed by all members of the Government and had the agreement of all members of the Opposition. Some Oireachtas Members wanted to add to it, but the general agreement was that the plan was feasible and that it should be implemented. Some did not believe the figures outlined in it were attainable, but the plan worked. I was involved in its formulation, with the then Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton. It was a joy to work with him in that Department. Other Departments became involved in the plan and action was taken. Everybody had a job to do and the Taoiseach got everyone together every couple of months to ensure the plan was progressing. The action plan for housing takes the same approach and uses the same logic. For two and a half years we carried out a detailed analysis of what needed to be done and ensured it was delivered. In fairness, Senator Dolan agreed that, overall, the plan was probably working. I will return to the high-end figure for the number of people who are still homeless. We are exactly where we thought we would be in the delivery of housing in line with the Action Plan for Housing and Homelessness using the same logic and approach used in the Action Plan for Jobs. It takes a whole-of government approach to tackling the issue.

Predictably, my Department takes the lead on the plan. Other key players are the local authorities, approved housing bodies, various funders and so on, as well as the private planning and construction sector. The Department of Health has an involvement and the plan is driven by the Department of the Taoiseach. The Department of Finance has advanced the required funding of more than €6 billion of taxpayers' money. The Department of Justice and Equality has a significant role, while other Departments help to feed into the plan and make it happen. Actions have been allocated to those involved and they meet every couple of months to go through the actions and ensure the plan is progressing. Senator Dolan was correct to say it is working. I can confirm that it is because it is delivering on its targets. The difficulty is that although it is delivering on the targets set, that is not sufficient to deal with the situation in which we find themselves. That is why families are still living in emergency accommodation. The numbers have remained stubbornly high, in spite of the increased supply. I will return to that issue momentarily.

The action plan for housing has the right logic and is working. We are trying to formulate a plan along similar lines in the provision of accommodation for older people which will get all Departments to row in behind it and make it happen, but that will only happen if the plan is driven. A housing delivery team in my Department ensures delivery and drives our action plan for housing. When our policy document on housing for an ageing population is completed, we will put in place a similar body to drive its implementation. Since the Government came to power, there has been a new approach, whereby policy documents have been backed up by action plans and people made responsible for their implementation according to agreed timelines. That is the only way to make it happen. That is why I must disagree with some of the suggestions made by Senator Warfield. We all know that there are outstanding housing issues, but a lot of progress is being made. We are on the right track and the trends are right. It is a five-year plan. At its outset, everybody stated they would be happy if we achieved a figure of providing 10,000 social houses annually. This year 10,00 social houses will be delivered. That could not happen in year one. We all might have liked that it would be possible, but it was not. However, the target will be reached this year. We are probably slightly ahead of target, rightly so, because we need more housing to be delivered. That is why the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, addressed the Seanad earlier today on the various parts of that delivery and probably highlighted the extra funding he had secured to exceed the targets because we recognise that more people need help and we are trying to provide it. We are trying to ensure we will deliver on our plans. It is important first to ensure the policy and plans are right, which is why we engaged in consultation.

Deputy Deering is in the Visitors' Gallery accompanying what is probably a team from Carlow. There was some criticism, probably led by Senator Murnane O'Connor, about rural Ireland being forgotten in the provision of housing and good projects. The motion relates to the whole of Ireland. The Government does not differentiate between cities or towns and rural areas when it comes to the provision of accommodation for older people. In fact, some of the best projects I have seen are in rural areas. One of the best I have seen is in County Carlow. I went with Deputy Deering to look at a very impressive project in a very small rural village. The community had come together as a parish and used funding from the Department to deliver housing for older people who were then able to move into the village. It is a perfect project and we are trying to facilitate more such projects. I believe Senators agree that it is something we must do. There are good examples of such projects in each of our counties. However, we want to scale up delivery, which is why my Department has worked with the Department of Health under the Minister, Deputy Harris, and the Minister of State, Deputy Jim Daly, to put together a policy document which will allow us to scale up delivery of good projects such as those and offer far more housing options and solutions for older people, while allowing them to retain their sense of place by giving them the choice to live where they want to live. In case Senator Dolan has to leave I will say that we have to have renewed focus on people with disabilities as well. When we provide accommodation and allow for towns and villages for people who are ageing, this should cater for people of all abilities, including disabilities. I am very happy to focus on this issue in the Seanad and at the committee with the input of the Senator. Now that Rebuilding Ireland is delivering on overall supply, we should focus on the different aspects of that supply and aim to get the concentration of different types of accommodation right. I am happy to do this to ensure that we have this conversation, through the delivery office, with all local authorities. We must ask them to make sure they provide accommodation for people with disabilities. We need the correct quantity and percentage of it. A certain percentage of the housing stock has to be ready and adapted for people with disabilities. We have to make sure we get that right, and that we are providing the correct houses in the correct places at that correct time. We do not want to go back to the old system where we would start talking about such accommodation when someone needed it, and plan it for three years later. That is not what Senator Dolan is asking for. We have to make sure that we have the houses we need when we need them. I believe we can do that now.

We are aware of the trends, and have done analysis on the population and where people are based. There is no reason we cannot make sure we are getting the right housing stock delivered at the right time. Local authorities are once again delivering houses, and have reassembled their teams, including planners and housing delivery units, and they are now back in the business of delivering houses and housing solutions. They should always have been doing that, but for some reason that was stopped. I do not wish to delve into the history of it. They are delivering the numbers, and we can now look at what is being delivered to ensure we have the correct amount of every type of housing we need. Central to that is accommodation for older people and people who are ageing.

Going back to where we started with Senator Reilly, it is absolutely essential that we have this motion today. My Department welcomes, agrees with and supports the motion because we have been working in this way for the past couple of years. We are working on this policy, informed by key objectives underpinning it as expressed in A Programme for Partnership Government, and Pillar 2 of the Rebuilding Ireland Action Plan for Housing and Homelessness. We focused on this area and identified that we wanted to carry out a number of actions. This policy document is a part of that, and we have an implementation plan to ensure it happens. These aim to support older people to live in their own homes with dignity and independence for as long as possible, and in doing so to examine the potential of targeted schemes to meet differing housing needs. We all want to achieve independence and to allow people to remain in their homes for as long as possible. When that is not an option or does not suit a person's needs we want to makes sure that people are able to right-size, as we call it, and move to more suitable accommodation. Ideally, that more suitable accommodation will be a couple of hundred yards up the road, whether in Swords, Skerries or Tralee or where other groups are coming together. It must be where people want it to be. Nobody wants to right-size or downsize to a house in another town or county. It does not suit people and nobody wants that. We do not want that either, and we are not trying to achieve that.

I like the phrase that Senator Reilly used at the start of this debate. He said that we should make the right thing to do the easy thing to do. That is exactly what we are trying to do here. We are trying to make it easy to right-size. We have not always made it easy. Groups have come together to find a solution to this, but they get bogged down with rules, regulations, red tape, planning and funding issues. There are debates over which Department pays for things, and people do not know where to go or what to do. This policy document seeks to break through all of that and make it easy. It seeks to provide simple logic in order that when a local authority or group of individuals in a private capacity, such as a developer or an approved housing body, seeks to deliver a project there is a step-by-step approach in place which allows it to be delivered quickly.

I have seen some wonderful projects during my travels all over the country. The Housing Agency has produced a document which highlights 19 of the best projects out there. Each had a different journey, long and slow and complicated in some cases, with red tape, rules and questions. We want to break through all of that. If a group decides to do a project, there must be logic it can follow and a plan it can access. There is a very good project in Inchicore at the moment which is going through that process. We have developed a toolkit from that project that everyone else can use. This means if anyone wants to repeat this project elsewhere, it would be easy to do so. That is what my Departmental officials have been working on over the last couple of years, and thankfully it is close to completion.

We have been trying to think ahead, plan ahead and future-proof this country under the national planning framework to make sure we have the correct policies in place and the correct housing we require. The national planning framework is part of Project Ireland 2040. It is an overarching policy and planning framework for the social, economic and cultural development of Ireland. It is grounded on key demographic data to inform the broader policy context and long-term vision in addressing the needs of the population, including older people. Objective 30 of the framework provides that local planning, housing, transport accessibility and leisure policies will be developed with a focus on meeting the needs and opportunities of an ageing population, along with the inclusion of specific projections, supported by clear proposals in respect of ageing communities as part of the core strategy of city and county development plans. I firmly believe that Governments have to deal with today's issues and try to fix them as quickly as possible, but also to have an eye on the future and ensure we are planning for it. A number of Members said that while we are solving the housing problems of today, we might be creating problems for the future. We are trying to avoid doing that. Many of the current problems in housing are due to the lack of planning and focused delivery on planning in key areas in the past, for example, where there should have been analysis of population trends, and the failure to manage the delivery of housing stock.

Rebuilding Ireland is not just a document about delivering houses. It is about delivering a sustainable housing construction sector. That means that a certain amount of particular types of housing units is delivered every year, and that amount is managed. We cannot go from zero units delivered one year to 90,000 delivered the next, then down to 16,000 or 17,000, back to 20,000 and down to 10,000. That is not a sustainable construction sector. People cannot make plans for that or assume that they will have a house in the future. One cannot assume, if one goes to college or does an apprenticeship, that one will get a job in a construction sector that operates in that way. There has to be a sustainable construction delivery plan that delivers a set amount of units every year. We believe that amount is between 28,000 and 30,000 housing units every year. In recent years, we have put together a housing supply, both public and private, that was built on success. There are a pipeline of projects which will continue into the future, and the Government is absolutely committed, on behalf of the taxpayers whose money we are spending, to delivering 10,000 social houses each year from now on, and up to 12,000 across all of the schemes. There is a total capacity for housing of between 28,000 and 30,000 units per annum every year, based upon the projections for the next 25 or 30 years. That is where we are at and what we intend to deliver. People can plan for that, set aside land for it and build for it. Local authorities can do their jobs to make this happen. If we stick to all of these plans and make them a reality, we will be able to provide the accommodation that people need in the right place, at the right price and at the right time.

The ageing of our population, in common with other developed countries, will represent one of the most significant demographic and societal developments that Ireland has ever encountered. The number of people over the age of 65 is expected to increase substantially, reaching 1.4 million by 2040, or 23% of the total population. In the same period, the number of people aged over 80 is set to quadruple. The implications for such diverse public policy areas as housing, health, urban and rural planning, transport, policing, the workplace and the business environment are considerable. It is prudent to plan carefully now to ensure our resources can be used to best effect for the whole population in the years ahead. The motion refers to the blend of social and private money, and some Members have also mentioned it. Taxpayers fund a substantial amount of housing but cannot fund all of it.

When it comes to the provision of accommodation for people who are ageing we want to achieve a blend. Senator Byrne touched on some of the schemes she has seen, both private and public. We want to achieve that too, and allow for a mix of public and private money. By doing that we can achieve real scale, with real numbers in the system and real choice for people who can then decide to right-size or downsize within their locality.

These numbers are evidence of how much we have moved forward as a country. We are living longer and healthier lives, and we should celebrate that. However, that also brings challenges in the housing and health spheres in particular. It highlights the importance of developing a wider choice of appropriate housing options for older people suitable to their needs. We are talking about options. I have heard the words "forcing" and "making" used in this context. We are not using any of those words. We want to give people the option or choice. Perhaps they would like to move, change their house, use their equity or downsize. They should have the option to do that within their locality. People do not want to hear the words "forcing" or "moving". That is wrong, and it is not what this is about. I want to be very clear about that. Other benefits accrue when a person decides to right-size. The existing house can be used for one's family or it can be used by another family. We are talking about choice and options. Often, if we provide the correct options, it works well from a family point of view.

Planning policy requires, under section 94 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, that planning authorities must include a housing strategy in their development plans. This must include provisions to ensure that any developments being provided during the lifetime of the development plan must have a mix of housing types and sizes to reasonably match the requirements of different kinds of households, including the special requirements of older people and people with disabilities.We are going to make sure that happens. We are working with the local authorities to make sure they are doing that in their plans. I was not picking out Senator Boyhan with regard to who can vary what, but the development plan belongs to the councillors. It is their plan. Please do not be upset with the variations because it is the councillors' plan in the first place. If we are planning for 20 or 25 years ahead we should be getting the plans right. Yes, there is a mechanism now in place, enabled by the Senator and others, to allow the variation conversation but I want us to get the development plans right in the first place. There is no point in councillors spending two or three years on a development plan and then a week later wanting to vary it. Get it right in the first place, think ahead for the long term and make provision for people of all ages and all abilities or disabilities in the development plans.

Fundamentally, we are aiming to encourage and facilitate timely planning by older people and to rebalance the care model away from residential care to supporting older people to remain living independently at home for longer. As all the research clearly shows - and many Members have referenced it here today - this reflects the preferences of older people themselves and their advocates. It also makes sound economic sense. As I said earlier, I compliment many of the groups who helped us with the policy development. Over the years those groups helped to provide housing for older people and a lot of groups spend time advocating, putting policy together and feeding that to us. I thank them again for their expertise and for making it available to us. It makes a lot of sense to us.

Varying levels of support will be needed to enable older people to continue living in their own homes and communities, including care needs where appropriate. Older people are not a homogenous group and the policy statement will recognise the diversity and uniqueness of individuals. This goes back to giving people choice. The Minister of State, Deputy Daly, is very clear about this and has brought the Department of Health with him on this journey. The Departments of Health and Housing, Planning and Local Government have had to change and develop our relationship to make this new policy statement work and to be able to drive on with the changes we need to make it easier to happen.

It is also about supporting the development of housing and services on centrally located sites within the urban area, and within rural areas and villages. The development of good quality, well connected, urban and village centres with a range and choice of housing tenures and types, actively supports ageing in place. It allows older people to choose housing that is appropriate to their needs, which will help them to enjoy more active, healthy and socially connected lives and to age confidently and comfortably within their community. This will help people to choose the most suitable home to meet their needs and enable them to right size as they move through different stages of their lives.

Social isolation can be associated with a higher risk of death among older people. In this regard, the importance of social interventions and interaction is vital in ensuring that the older population is adequately cared for and supported. Social interventions are based on preventative care and support for older people and can substantially increase a person’s quality of life. When we are trying to make policies for people who are ageing or for people with disabilities it must be remembered that they want to feel part of the community and we need them as part of the community; they have a lot to offer be it in job creation with fulfilling jobs or contributing to the local community. People of older years might feel that as they are retired they are no longer needed to work. It is about designing homes, villages, towns and cities that encourage those people to come out and get involved. An age-friendly town or a disability-friendly town is one that encourages people to come out, get involved and take part, but one has to feel that. This is why I ask local authorities to embrace our policy work also. This is what we are trying to achieve. This starts with people's houses and homes.

I am only one third through my speech. Perhaps I will get a chance at a later stage to contribute further. I am aware this is a motion that has been brought forward by Senator Reilly. We are going to bring forward a policy document in a few weeks. Maybe we will get a chance to discuss it in the Seanad also. There have been many issues raised and discussed by Members and I would like be involved in that and have a chance to discuss it with them further. This is about giving people a choice, it is about planning ahead, it is about using properties and land in a good way. The local authorities are central to all of that in making it happen.

Senators referred to credit unions being blocked from putting money into social housing. I cannot be any clearer when I say that they are not being blocked. Much work was done with the Central Bank to enable credit unions to invest their members' money into housing. That legislation and the regulations were passed nearly one year ago. It means setting up a special purpose vehicle. The Department has aided that process. We cannot set it up as it is not the Government's job to set it up. It has to be separate from Government. Some credit unions are involved in doing that. I understand that some credit unions have set up a special purpose vehicle so they can now invest money in housing. They are waiting for housing bodies to express an interest in doing that. It is wrong to say they have been blocked. That is not the case. It may have been the case in the past but it is no longer the case. Other credit unions are trying to develop a new vehicle where they can also do that. The mechanisms are there and work just needs to be completed. Some of the work that the Irish Council for Social Housing was involved in is now nearing completion and we should have it in the weeks ahead to make it open for use again. There are many other issues I could touch on but I know that I am short of time.