John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

They do and they also raise the matter with me. I emphasise the Senator's point that this is one piece of a reform package. It is a bit like what happened during the mergers in Waterford, Limerick and Tipperary. The first thing to be done was the appointment of a joint chief executive who drove the process. There is a major gap in our local authority structure that does not really exist in any other comparable place in the world. Much of the power rests with the executive and little of it with the people who are elected. The fundamental point of this measure is to fundamentally address that by effectively making the roles of what used to be known as county manager and city manager directly elected positions. The chief executive would continue to run the administration, but the directly elected mayor would be the person responsible for the political side, as well as being the face of the local authority. He or she would be responsible for the political decisions and policy positions of the authority.

Senator Boyhan also spoke about remuneration and other matters. From the interim report produced by Ms Moorhead, it was fairly clear where her thoughts are heading with regard to the underpayment of local authority members for the work they do and the hours they put in. Again, however, I cannot pre-empt what the final report will say.

I can see how this measure could be viewed as an attack on chief executives of local authorities and county managers, but it is not. For the most part, chief executives and county managers have been exemplary public servants across the country. This is an absolute acknowledgement that one either believes in democracy or one does not. For this reason, I am slightly in disagreement with Deputy Jan O'Sullivan and Senator Maria Byrne about celebrity-type candidates. I do not want to see a celebrity-type candidate elected anywhere unless he or she is qualified and able to do the job. Not all celebrities are unqualified for the role. We cannot exclude people from running for elected office on the basis that they were sportspersons or anything else in a previous life. Ultimately, the people will make the call as to who their directly elected mayor will be after individuals have decided to put themselves forward for the role. I am sure parties will also contest these elections and run candidates.

In respect of the meeting with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, scheduled for the near future, I have already had some preliminary discussions with the councillor representative groups on the issue. Much like the views expressed in the Seanad today, their views have been broadly supportive but they have inquired as to the parameters of the role. I do not want to presuppose what the issues of concern to the CCMA might be, but we will certainly try to ensure a balance is struck.

The matter of the local property tax, LPT, is a two-handed reel between the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and the Department of Finance. The work is nearly completed from the point of view of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. I am sure Senator Boyhan will continue to raise the matter with the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. People need certainty. When I say "people" I do not necessarily mean only the public. Local authority members and people who hold positions in local government also need that certainty. Several speakers said that the real issues were finance and the functions and costs of the role. I agree absolutely. Once the Government has made its decision, I will have no problem coming back to the House again.

Senator Coffey also supported the idea we are proposing in principle but had issues regarding the practicalities of how it would work. We have always had an issue in Ireland in that representative groups, including those representing councillors and county managers, are not always the first people seeking reform of the system. I suppose it is the natural shape of the relationship that has existed in local government for so long. Some consultation has taken place and more will take place. The Senator asked whether the mayor or chief executive will call the shots. The mayor will call the shots because this is about injecting a severe dose of democratic accountability into local government at the executive level. We already have it at the reserved level, that is, among local authority members.

More will be done on the issue of councillors' powers when Ms Moorhead's work is completed because there is an appetite in government for ensuring councillors have more powers. Senator Humphreys said there are local authority members who do not want to exercise their powers. Drawing up the budget and development plans are the most substantive powers available to them. Some local authorities get deeper into the nitty-gritty of the drafting and drawing up of these than others do. If one thinks back to the old local authority structure, there was a county agricultural committee, a county education committee and a county health committee. All of those functions have been removed over the years, not by any one Government but by many Governments over decades. Many of those decisions were made because difficult issues were not dealt with at local level. Some of it was done under the headings of saving costs or of benefitting from economies of scale when certain functions are performed at a more central or regional level. We all know that has not worked particularly well in certain areas. I am all in favour of more devolution but, again, we will see what emerges in Ms Moorhead's report in terms of how much more power can be given back. My position on this issue is that any function that can be performed as efficiently and cost-effectively - or more so - at local level than at a higher level should be performed by the local authority in the future. I will not draw a line under devolving anything that can be done as or more efficiently at local government level.

Senator Warfield also supported the concept but spoke about a lack of specifics. I cannot be too specific. This was a discussion for Members to give their suggestions. The Senator is absolutely right in one point he raised, which was completely different from those of everyone else. Holding two elections, two referendums and plebiscites on the same day will mean that we will have to be very clear with the people in the three local authority areas as to what that fifth ballot paper is about. As practising politicians, we all know about the blank ballot papers that sometimes appear in ballot boxes because people did not know there was to be a referendum or a plebiscite on a certain issue. People in the particular areas in which the plebiscites will be held will go in to vote for their local councillor or whatever and suddenly find they have been given five ballot papers.

The costs associated with the role and what it will entail will, absolutely, be made public. I am sure that this will be part of the campaign locally.

Senator Humphreys and others spoke about the roles of various Government agencies and other authorities to which we have devolved functions over the years, be it the National Transport Authority or others. The directly elected head of local government must have a clear role in transport and in other functions that have been given to State bodies and agencies. How precise this will be is a decision facing the Government over the next few weeks. It would be pointless, as Senator Kieran O'Donnell has said, if this role was just a figurehead. People would not vote for it. It has to be one with real powers.

Senator Byrne spoke about her support for the measure and how it did not matter if the person is rural or city based and she is right in this regard. Deputies in the other House becried and gave out about the prospect that the directly elected mayor of Limerick might come from outside of Limerick city. Again, this is a matter for the public and it would be the same in Waterford.

Off the top of my head I do not know the population breakdown between Limerick city and county but in Waterford city and county there is probably a slightly larger rural population, and if one includes the Tramore end of the county it is probably more evenly balanced between city and county. It will be a matter for the people to vote for who they think is the best person. Reference was made to the success in Limerick of the merger, which had opponents at the time but which has worked out well for the city and the county. Senator Byrne also spoke about the importance of the plebiscite route because if the people say they want that particular role it gives a democratic mandate to the person elected, and I feel this too. The Senator is correct in her comments about the five mayors in Limerick. I believe that a mayor should only be from an urban centre or a unified local authority. There is an idea that exists right across the country that in municipal districts with no significant urban centre the chairperson of that area is a mayor. Again, it is a matter for the local authorities to determine themselves, but the Custom House may have to revisit this because it leads to confusion among the public.

I have already referred to some of Senator Humphreys's comments. He spoke about the need to ensure that everybody could run for the position and that there would be no artificial hurdles. I agree fully with this principle. The more I have debated this matter over two days in the Dáil and the Seanad the more I am convinced that rather than go to the public with the big bang we need to have a specific list - which might be a shortlist - of functions the directly elected mayor would have at first and have a longer list indicating where the role might go. One of the things that came out from the process in Cork was that the Cork local authorities performed 400 different functions. Trying to explain this to the public would be difficult, whereas if one identified the ten or 12 key policy areas where the transfer responsibility is wanted from day 1, then the list can grow. That is what happened in every other jurisdiction I have looked at. It is one thing I have learned from the discussion in both Houses over the last week of sittings.

Reference was made to the Civic Alliance document. I do not see any reason. I want to consider a move towards a system of local government that would have more similarity with how national politics works in the sense that as well as getting more powers there would be more responsibility accepted at local level. Senator Humphreys spoke about what was effectively a programme for government for the Dublin city local authority. I believe that this is what will come out of these measures.

On the query about fast-tracking Dublin, if the Dublin assembly can complete its work this year it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that a directly elected mayor might emerge in Dublin as quickly as in the other areas. As I said, the Department of the Taoiseach is leading on this. I am pushing them as much as I can to ensure that assembly meets. Unlike the Constitutional Convention it will not go on over months. A weekend or two could get a lot of the work done on those particular matters. A Senator asked about how the new cabinet system would be appointed. It is important that the democratic will of the people is represented. We have a block system at local authority level where positions are filled and I believe that rather than a confrontational style of local government straight off the bat the different groupings should be represented in those leadership positions as the lead on housing, planning or transport, for example, in each local authority area. That would be my preference but I am sure others may have different views.

Senator Kieran O'Donnell was correct when he said it is important that what is put to the people is valid, credible and not rushed. It is my intention to have a series of town hall meetings. I would consider it necessary to have one in Limerick city and one somewhere in the west of the county. The same applies to Waterford. It is slightly different in Cork where it is just the city area. Senator Lombard might guide me in this; do we need to have such a meeting in both the north and south sides of the city? City Hall in Cork is probably the place to have it, but further to that it will be an intensely local campaign. The local media outlets in Limerick, Cork and Waterford will need to be used to the maximum to explain what it is that people will be faced with when they enter the polling booth in May of this year.

Senator Kieran O' Donnell asked who would decide on policy and if it would be the executive or the mayor. The mayor and the council will decide on policy, not the executive. The general view of the council is that powers have gone one way. Exactly, and I hope this is the start of a process that will see a reversal of that one-way traffic, which has existed in different policy areas of local government for 30 years. The mayor will be a member of the local council, as things stand, and he or she will have a regular vote with the other councillors on the budget or the development plan, for example. Members have referred to celebrity candidates, but if a candidate for the role of directly elected mayor wishes to run in a ward or an electoral area it would be very much open to him or her to do that. The powers of councillors are protected. The Senator also asked when it would be finalised. It is our intention that this would be finalised within the next two weeks and we would have that public process.

Senator Buttimer expressed his disappointment on the low turnout of Senators to debate this matter. He referred to a series of information meetings, with which I agree absolutely. In the first instance it would probably be essential for me to go to the city council in Cork and the local authorities in Limerick and Waterford to talk with the councillors first and perhaps have the public meeting on the same night in those areas. I have no problem doing that.

The only opposition expressed to this in the Dáil Chamber was from Deputy Wallace. We are neighbours and I went to school with some of his family in New Ross in Wexford. Deputy Wallace gave us the example of H'Angus the Monkey, the Hartlepool United soccer team mascot in the UK. The mascot was elected as the mayor of Hartlepool on five successive occasions. I wish, however, to correct the record; the mascot was not a directly elected mayor with executive powers. H'Angus the Monkey did not get to influence policy decisions in Hartlepool in the same way I would envisage the directly elected mayors doing right across the country.

In my view, the head of every local authority should ultimately be directly elected whether it is in Kilkenny County Council, Leitrim County Council or Roscommon County Council. One can never have too much democracy. Currently we have democratic accountability for the lowest rung of local government, which is the councillor, but we have none for the highest rung. This is an attempt to redress that imbalance.