John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Yes, and heritage. It is important that heritage protections are taken into account. Senator Buttimer spoke passionately about Cork matters, as he always does. At operational level, there has been extensive co-operation between the city and county of Cork. When people have come out of their trenches, politically, there has also been co-operation. Nevertheless, there is always a view taken at local government level that if an area changes, the funding for that area will change and this throws up uncertainty for the future. What is being proposed provides certainty for Cork for the next 50 years. The development of land banks will, as stated by Senator Buttimer, enable Cork to become a city of scale.As the Leader said, it is an exciting time for the city and the county of Cork. He quoted someone at the start of his contribution but I did not note it as I had not started writing comments down. I have not heard such words about local government for a long time, if ever. He is correct that this is an exciting time for Cork.

Senator Nash asked a few specific questions. I will not support the town council Bill because I fundamentally disagree with the premise that people living in some towns should have two ballot papers for a local election while the rest of us have one. It is anti-democratic. That is not to say that the municipal districts system cannot, will not and should not be strengthened more into the future. I have spoken about mayoral powers. I know Mr. Niall McNelis for years and find it interesting that he, as a city councillor, is a strong supporter of a merger. I suppose he sees it from the point of view of Galway city driving the entire region.

Senator Nash spoke about Drogheda and the issues that have arisen there, which arise everywhere else. Since I took up this portfolio and have responsibility for boundary changes, my position is dominated by a realisation that, politically, they will never happen. They can happen in Cork because Cork people will retain their identity whether they are administered by Cork City Council or Cork County Council. The one that I am most familiar with and passionate about is the one in Roscommon, which generated 27,000 public submissions. That means more than half the population of Roscommon made a submission. What I want to do, and I shall get an opportunity with a smaller Bill at the start of next year, is talk about these urban area committees and properly plan the entirety of a city or a town that crosses a boundary. I want a formal structure and not just each authority doing its own thing but walking away.

Senator Nash asked whether I would amend the provisions entirely in order to prevent boundary changes by statutory instrument. I will not in the sense that if there is agreement there will still be that provision. Where there is not agreement about matters of identity - and we all know it in the context of Brexit and hard borders at the moment, which might be a dramatic comparison - I believe there should be a debate in the Oireachtas. The Minister should have to seek the approval of the Oireachtas rather than a Minister just making the decision to sign a statutory instrument. My stance is correct.

The Senator wanted clarity about the funding for Cork. The review is a ten-year mechanism, although previously it happened after three years or sooner and, at that stage, the city council would write to the Minister and a case made for a continuation or an adjustment. The provision is not a significant change from the original thinking. It is about providing that certainty of funding.

Senator Craughwell said that haste had been a part of the Bill. He made the extraordinary claim that there was no pre-legislative scrutiny, particularly in respect of Galway. There was but the committee said it did not want to consider that. The committee gave up its right to pre-legislative scrutiny, which was not anything that I particularly asked for. In fairness to the committee, the housing brief dominates its work as one would expect. It is inaccurate for him to suggest there was no pre-legislative scrutiny. The committee waived such scrutiny.

The Senator said that subsidiarity was out of the window and that the Bill runs the risk of seriously damaging services provided by local government. He went on to say there would be "inevitable" damage to local services. I suggest that he talks to Senators Grace O'Sullivan or Kieran O'Donnell as Limerick is the flagship. There were unique challenges in Limerick, particularly in respect of geography, as Limerick city is very much at one end of the county and issues of deprivation. Galway city is smack bang in the middle of the county. There was no "inevitable" damage to local services in Limerick. The city is the shining light of renewal in the country over the past five years and, therefore, I do not accept the claim made by the Senator.

He also said that he was deeply unhappy that the new joint chief executive post will be an acting position. He or she will take up a permanent position. I do not know where he got it that the post would be acting. It is precisely because one of the current chief executives is acting that we want to appoint a person to a permanent position. He or she will be the head of the administration into the future and will be in charge of some of the merger processes in Cork that we have spoken about at length. The Senator also said that he was shocked that there was such an agreement in Cork but no agreement in Galway. Perhaps that is how it appears on the outside and I will take that as it sounds like a compliment. I assure him that I know from going to meetings in Cork with my own party colleagues that I was run out of town-----