John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

He was the youngest mayor; I had forgotten.

At council level outside the budget and maybe particular issues that arise from time to time with the election of the leader or chair, very little party politics comes into it. It is mostly about people who want to do the right thing for their own area. That type of collaborative approach would be very welcome.

I agree with the Senator that it should apply in every local authority. I want Leitrim County Council, which is the smallest local authority area by population, to have its own directly elected chairperson or whatever title will be used.

As Deputy Connolly said in the other House, one size does not fit all. Leitrim has the smallest population but geographically it is quite a large drawn-out county; it takes on hour to drive from one end to the other. Whereas depending on traffic in Dublin city which has 1 million people it is possible to get around quite quickly. One size does not fit all. The initial plebiscites will seek the consent of the people to make what would be the biggest change to the structure of local government that we will probably have ever made.There will be a learning mechanism to see what has and has not worked. I am not familiar with any country where directly-elected mayors have been introduced across the board. The last British general election coincided with the election of Joe Anderson in Liverpool and Andy Burnham in Manchester, though there had been a London Mayor for many years. In Manchester they do not have an assembly but ten borough councils, which are separate local authorities. The mayors of those make up the assembly for the greater Manchester area. It is completely different from the system in London so one can see that there are different systems even within countries.

I understand the frustration of Senator Warfield about the Dublin issue but I am absolutely committed to not creating an extra layer of local government in Dublin just for the sake of it. There may be no other way to have a directly-elected mayor but Dublin is unique and not comparable to London or other big cities we may think of because, proportionally, it has such a huge part of our population. I am loath to pick something from somewhere else and stick it into Dublin because I do not believe that one size fits all. I do not know what the convention in Dublin will come up with but the ambition is for something that can fit in with the structures we have, or recommend new structures from scratch. It will ask 67 citizens and 33 politicians, including councillors, what they think the structure of local government should be in the future. The Government is committed to this happening next year.

Senator Boyhan said he had written to all the councillors in Galway and that not one had written back expressing support for the merger. I agree with him that it was a useful task to carry out but if he had written to county councillors in Cork prior to this legislation, he would have received unanimous opposition to the extension of the boundary there. Despite the love and affection I genuinely hold for councillors, their position on matters of local boundaries is generally to support their own position. They are not unique in that regard and Deputies and Senators have similar ways of coming to decisions. I am always struck by the last man who died in the Seanad Chamber, though he was pronounced dead just outside the Chamber. He was Jackie Daly, a famous Senator from Killarney and the predecessor of another famous Senator from Killarney who is still in the House. At a Fine Gael parliamentary party meeting in 1984, he proposed the postponement of the local elections that were due for that year. He knew the way to impress the then Taoiseach and to get it postponed to 1985, which is when they took place, and this was by conducting a survey of councillors. He got a 100% response and agreement that the elections should be put off for a year. I am not dismissing Senator Boyhan, who is a very good contributor to debates, but my job and that of the Department is not necessarily to seek 100% agreement from everyone all the time about what should happen.

The Senator asked me to clarify the two-chamber proposal. The local Government Bill for next year, which is in the preliminary stages of drafting, will be the Galway merger Bill in all but name. I absolutely believe that a city the size of Galway, that wants to develop like Galway, should have its own political entity. I am 100% committed to that and the Bill will contain provisions to that effect. It is unique and we have not done this anywhere else in Ireland but it is done in many other places around the world. The two officials behind me are not getting any turkey this Christmas because they have to come up with a unique Irish solution to this. If they can do it in other places, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Senator Boyhan also mentioned consultation with the County and City Management Association, CCMA. We went further than consultation and we put the manager of the city council and the manager of the county council on the group. The expert group did not have a minority report but agreed unanimously with the merger. That was the strangest argument I have ever heard because the management in Galway wants the merger to happen. It wants a joint chief executive to be appointed. There were comments by other Senators which beggared belief, despite the overall tone of the debate being very good. Senator Boyhan spoke about Galway County Council being premature and maybe he is right but I think the councillors acted in good faith. I had several discussions with Oireachtas Members in Galway in the lead-up to the Dáil Stages of the Bill last week. It was a constant battle to secure more equitable funding for Galway, in anticipation of merger, to support the municipal districts and this is where the figure of €1.4 million came from.

If the legislation, including the section on Galway, does not pass then Galway County Council will have to revise its budget because there will be a gap of €1.4 million. I was accused at one of those Oireachtas meetings by Deputy Ó Cuív of issuing a threat and it sounds like that but there is no other way to make it sound. He wanted me to break the law but the Taoiseach would have my head on a plate in the morning if I signed away money to Galway County Council that was not on the basis of electoral reform, which is the only basis on which I can give discretionary funding. Deputy Ó Cuív, of course, sat at the Cabinet table for ten years and did nothing on the funding issue, meaning a huge gap has existed in Galway County Council for decades.

I agree with Senator Boyhan about the Laois-Carlow situation, with which Senator Murnane O'Connor would be most familiar. It has worked so well that it is not an issue. Senator Murnane O'Connor comes from Graiguecullen, which is partly in Carlow and partly in Laois, and for years Carlow has provided a lot of its services with Laois funding them at the end of each year. As a result, the boundary report only received eight submissions from the general public. It is working well and the boundary is not an issue in people's daily lives. The situation in Galway is different and it is not accurate to compare it to Laois or Carlow. New arrangements were introduced in 1985 to set up two completely separate corporate entities in Galway. The honest thing to say is that it never worked properly and it led to funding issues for the county council in particular.

Senator Nash talked about city regions leading development but there is no Oireachtas Member who comes from a more rural place than me. There are many trees and cows where I come from and, despite the fact that it happens to be close to Waterford city, it is very sparsely populated. Waterford city is the economic driver in that part of the south east, however, and I want to see it grow more into that role into the future. We need Galway to do the very same.Senator Warfield spoke about his time living in Galway and the disagreements between Galway city and county councils. The Senator is correct. It is crazy that bus corridors put in place by one of the local authorities in Galway are not continued into the next local authority area. There is significant ongoing discussion about the new ring road. While this project is not by any stretch of the imagination a matter for the local authorities, having two separate corporate entities and managements is a contributory factor in the delay around this project. Nobody should doubt that. There has been no major or minor public protest in Galway about the prospect of merging the local authorities but there is political protest about it. Politicians have a job to do but the public expects them to do politics as well as they can.

Senator Boyhan asked me to delete Galway from the Bill. I cannot and will not because I gave my word on funding to the county council and it produced its budget on foot of it. Galway will also feature in the next local government Bill, which will be drafted over the next few months. Senator Boyhan also said that the CEOs should appear before the Committee of Public Accounts. I was very much in favour of this proposal until recently. The committee has become a political football. A former Member of this House, Michael McCarthy, was recently appointed chairman of the National Oversight and Auditing Commission, NOAC, through the public appointments process. NOAC is responsible for auditing local authorities. I propose to give this body greater powers in the next local government Bill. Why would we establish a new structure, or expand the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts which has become very politicised, when we have in place a body tasked with this job, which has never been given the publicity or teeth to do so in-depth? I propose to address this is in the next local government Bill.

Senator Boyhan also said that the provision regarding directly elected mayors should be deleted because it is premature. This issue has been under discussion for a long time in political circles but it has never been discussed in the public arena. This Bill provides for the mechanism to allow plebiscites to be held. It is hoped the discussion with the public will take place early in the new year.

Senator Colm Burke mentioned infrastructure issues in Cork, while supporting the Bill. I agree with his remarks about the northern ring road. When the process of extending the boundaries of Cork was under way, one of the routes I examined was the designated route for the northern ring. Boundaries should be easily identifiable and large geographic features, whether rivers, mountains or motorways, should be boundaries. While the issue is not as simple as that, I agree with the points the Senator made. Cork is a great example of a city experiencing a lot of development of office building. There is significant potential in the docklands area he mentioned. The expanded city council will have to get to grips with that.

Senator Warfield said that insufficient time had been provided to debate the Bill. Formal debate on all of the issues has been quick but there has been plenty of general debate on them. We could debate the proposed merger of Galway city and council councils for ten years and it would not resolve the differences of opinion that people have about it. I agree there is need for greater clarity regarding the merger. I hope I have provided some of that clarity today, with more to be provided. The inclusion of Galway in this Bill is not premature. The issue of local government structural reform in respect of decision-making in the Custom House first came to the table six or seven years ago such that this process has not been short. It is probably just about long enough. However, I understand Senator Warfield's concern but I do not set the business of either House of the Oireachtas. That work is done independent of Government. The Senator also said that expediency is at the heart of the Bill; it is not. Currently, people throughout the country are making decisions about running for election. How can a potential candidate in Cork be expected to make a decision to run if three-quarters of the area in which he or she is a candidate might not be in the city into the future? The process has dragged on too long in this regard.

Senator Grace O'Sullivan welcomed the Bill. I am committed to having a full discussion on the powers of the directly elected mayors because that discussion has never been had in the public arena. While Members of both Houses have made similar comments about it during panel debates, there has been no discussion on it in either Chamber such that all Members can make their views known publicly on the issue. I believe every power that can be given to the directly elected mayor should be given. I also believe we should make provision for recall elections, which would be a first in Irish politics, but not in respect of a person who becomes unpopular because he or she has done what is right. I refer Senators to the situation that occurred in north Antrim recently in regard to a politician and public policy and funding concerns, which almost resulted in a recall election These mechanisms should exist. The testing ground for them will be this legislation. We are giving powers to elected representatives and there should be accountability not only through political channels but directly to the public.

On Cork, I have thought about it a lot in the past year and a half. Senators Buttimer and Colm Burke spoke about the volume of unused industrial and other land in the city. There is sufficient land to replicate almost half the current build in the city, although it would be costly to do so in some areas because much of the land would have to be regenerated. We will have to provide for that development to cater for the needs of young people who do not want to have to commute long distances. There is great potential in Cork city. Every major city in the country and every substantial town has unused docklands or industrial land, such as the 13-acre former brewery site in Kilkenny city. That has significant potential not only for office space, as mentioned by Senator Colm Burke, but living space.