Brian Ó Domhnaill (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I understand where Senator Norris is coming from and I intend to get to the point where I will refer directly to the Bill but giving this context is important because it is setting the contextual picture on what could happen. We are trying to mitigate against unintended consequences which can come with all legislation. We are trying to support the Minister in mitigating against those. We are trying to provide the context from the United Nations report which looked into the situation in Britain because we do not want the same findings in the United Nations report on the rights of persons with disabilities castigating Ireland because of our abortion laws and those unintended consequences which we are trying to mitigate against with this amendment.

The United Nations body recommends that our closest neighbour changes an abortion law, and that is worth noting. Not one advocate on the pro-choice side noted, welcomed or referred to this United Nations report. Perhaps if the report was leaning the other way I am sure it would have got great coverage all over the media but it was not reported at all, which raises its own questions. When we turn to the Irish context, a major issue here and the purpose of this amendment is around the potential impact or effect the Bill will have on the abortion rates of unborn babies with non-fatal abnormalities or diseases. Several very senior doctors seem to have no objection in principle to the law allowing abortions in such cases. That is fine, that is their right and they have stated so publicly.

These abnormalities can now be detected before the 12-week cut off, as was pointed out by Senator Mullen, and that is where it becomes relevant in the Irish context because that is when terminations can take place for any reason. Three of the doctors, including Professor Fergal Malone and Dr. Jennifer Donnelly of the Rotunda Hospital and Dr. Rhona Mahony, master of the National Maternity Hospital, outlined their views on this. Talking at an event organised by Together for Yes, Dr. Donnelly called for the repeal of the eighth amendment at the time, citing what she called complex fatal abnormalities, which would include conditions that would not necessarily lead to death soon after birth. Dr. Mahony stated on the RTÉ "News at One" days before the referendum that non-invasive prenatal testing, NIPT, is offered in her hospitals. She stated that the purpose is to prepare families for the risk that their children might suffer some disabilities, but she admitted that when anomalies are detected, an abortion often follows. During the interview, Dr. Mahony pointed out that the update of the test is increasing and that in her opinion, most women now avail of the test for reassurance purposes. She also stated:

Given that Down's syndrome is quite rare, most women will be reassured. I think it is very important to note that where we have antenatal diagnoses, for example in the Rotunda figures 50% of women would choose to continue a pregnancy knowing their baby has Down's syndrome - 50% will choose not to continue.

Again, no principled objection was offered from the doctors concerned. On the other hand, Professor Malone, the master of the Rotunda Hospital, spoke on "Liveline" about the foetal DNA testing offered in his hospital. I listened back to the clip late last night and like the other two doctors, he did not raise any principled objection to abortion in this scenario.

Those who defend the Bill before us claim that abortion will not be allowed on the ground of disability. However, under this Bill, abortion is allowed for any reason before 12 weeks. Therefore, what happens if disability can be detected before the 12-week gestation period? This is the crucial question which has not been answered.

As has been outlined in this House, in the other House and by the advocacy groups, screening is now offered in Ireland that detects abnormalities before the 12-week cut off, making the apparent ban moot. In the Rotunda Private Hospital, where Professor Malone works, the foetal DNA test is offered at nine weeks gestation and results come back, according to Professor Malone, typically in one week. He further stated that the test is 99.9% accurate. A further diagnostic test is advised, but not necessary. One can imagine that some couples who are keen to have an abortion in such circumstances will not take a second test, particularly if the 12-week limit puts them under time pressure in that regard. The same test, known as panorama, is offered in other Dublin clinics such as the Beacon Hospital or the Royal College of Surgeons. Additionally, in the Merrion Fetal Health clinic, where Dr. Mahony also works, the harmony test is offered at ten weeks and results arrive within seven days.

In addition, in Cork, a new company called P4ML was set up in 2017. It offers non-invasive prenatal testing, the NIPT test, at nine weeks gestation and results are available within two to four business days, confirming my argument on the technology advancing all of the time. On the P4ML website, Professor Louise Kenny appears as a testimonial. She was one of the most vocal doctors campaigning for the removal of the eighth amendment and advocated her position on television and radio debates before the referendum. P4ML also supported the repeal of the eighth amendment. I wonder if economic reasons were attached to that.

Clearly, there is a grave danger here when we have such advances in testing or scanning. We all welcome that-----