Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

In response to Senator Mullen's initial comments, we can vehemently disagree on the content of this legislation, as I know we do, and still have a debate that is respectful and constructive, and, as he rightly says, does not seek to filibuster or delay. I look forward to engaging on that basis.

I am not in a position to accept amendments Nos. 3 or 15 because these amendments, tabled by the Senators, delete the definition of viability set out in section 8 and replace it with alternative wording. This is a definition that has been debated and considered at great length, including by the Office of the Attorney General. Viability is defined in the Bill as "the point in a pregnancy at which, in the reasonable opinion of a medical practitioner, the foetus is capable of survival outside the uterus without extraordinary life-sustaining measures." This was the subject of considerable discussion during the drafting of the legislation and the formulation set out in the Bill specifies that extraordinary measures which would be more than routine and go beyond those used as a matter of normal medical practice in neonatal care these days would be required in order to save the life of the foetus.

I take Senator Norris's point about the importance of considering these issues in great detail. After this matter was discussed in the other House, I revised the explanatory memorandum to the Bill and included a further clarification which states that, for the avoidance of doubt, extraordinary life-sustaining measures refer to measures which go beyond those routinely used in neonatal practice to support the life of a premature infant. I believe this is a direct answer to Senator Mullen's request that a baby in this situation would be treated in exactly the same way as a premature baby. We heard from obstetricians at the committee and they are in the business of saving life. If a baby - because it is a baby at this stage - is viable, the normal neonatal care that would be applied to anybody's newborn baby will of course be applied to these cases. The amendment is, therefore, at best unnecessary and at worst, as Senator Norris says, potentially has unintended consequences.

I also cannot accept amendment No. 15 in section 10 because it proposes that a termination of pregnancy may only be carried out in an emergency where the foetus has not reached viability. I genuinely believe that in this amendment we are putting ourselves into the clinical setting where a doctor is working might and main to save a woman's life. Under the provisions of section 10, this applies in an emergency situation where there is an immediate threat - Senators should note the word "immediate" is used - to the life, or of serious harm to the health, of the pregnant woman, and "it is immediately necessary to carry out the termination of pregnancy in order to avert that risk." There are two occurrences of the word "immediate". This is a situation in which time is of the absolute essence and if the medical practitioner does not act, the woman may die. I accept nobody wants that to be the case but in such a situation it would not be appropriate to require a medical practitioner to carry out tests, procedures or examinations to determine whether a foetus is viable before he or she could proceed because this would represent a wholly unnecessary and inappropriate interference with best medical practice and a doctor's expert decision making in the moment of a medical crisis.

Ironically, amendment No. 15 would impose a stricter regime and test than the one currently in place in Irish law under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013. This would be more restrictive in the emergency setting than the current law, which was put in place before the repeal of the eighth amendment. The Senator is right. We can interpret and second guess why people voted "Yes" and why that was the result. However, in voting "Yes" people did not vote for a more restrictive situation in respect of an emergency setting. That would be the consequence of this.

We have to trust our medical practitioners to make decisions in the best interests of their patients. This is a case of trusting women because this is an emergency. It is a situation where a woman very much wants her pregnancy and her baby and has found herself at risk of dying or of very serious harm to her health and needs immediate medical attention. For those reasons, it would not be appropriate to accept amendment No. 15, which would impose a stricter regime than is currently in place under the emergency provisions of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013.