Rónán Mullen (Independent) | Oireachtas source

No, I understand that. I am grateful to the Minister for coming back. The facts are here. I have raised some specific questions to which I have not had an answer.

The Minister's essential point seems to be that "appropriate" is the word that has always been used. I cannot remember whether it was at the point when the Minister left, but I put it to him that he elevated the meaning of the word "necessary" in the Dáil to mean absolutely 100% necessary. In the Minister's absence, I referred to what the Medical Council guidelines. They use the expression "it may be necessary to terminate". The word "necessary" is normal. I noted the fact that the Medical Council guidelines had been revised and amended in the wake of the death of the late Savita Halappanavar. It is a big statement to say the use of the word is too restrictive and has a chilling effect given that the word is what is the status quoin the context of necessary medical interventions for the saving of life as permitted under the 2013 legislation.

I asked the Minister whether he could refer to a specific situation where the current Medical Council guidelines were found to be too restrictive or to have had a chilling effect. I asked whether the word "necessary" has been, is being or is required to be interpreted as meaning absolutely 100% necessary, as the Minister said in the Dáil on Committee Stage, such that doctors cannot exercise their clinical judgment. I asked the Minister which doctor or doctor representative bodies told him that. The claim that the current Medical Council guidelines use of the word "necessary" is problematic will come as major news to many obstetricians practising today. I asked the Minister what actual negative effect it had had on obstetric practice. I asked whether he could give an example of a case, since the guidelines have been revised, of where a termination to save the life of a woman was refused because it was not necessary, and where this judgment turned out to be incorrect and lives were lost as a result. I asked why the Minister had not sought amendment to the Medical Council guidelines since they were last revised in 2016 in the light of any such problems.

The Minister is the person who wants to change the standard word. He has elevated the word to mean absolutely 100% necessary. I believe this is intended to give us a picture that it is difficult to reach that test. Yet, since "necessary" is the word that is in the Medical Council guidelines, I believe we are entitled to more than mere vague references to legal advice and reference to obstetricians, because the Minister is the person who wants to change it. I am suggesting is that the word "appropriate" is unusual and falls short of the current word used in broadly similar situations. My questions are reasonable.