Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank all of the Senators who contributed to the debate. I have listened intensely, as have the officials from the Department. The various issues that have been raised will be considered further by the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation as the Bill makes its way through this House. It is intended to have Committee Stage on 3 October, which is next week, subject to the agreement of the House. There may be a chance before that to engage with officials about some of the issues and concerns that Senator Bacik raised. I will touch on them a little more in a moment. The Senator may have missed it but I noted earlier that the officials will be pleased to engage with Senators on any issues they may wish to raise in the next week.

This is detailed and technical legislation. When implemented, it will organise and expand copyright and related rights in Ireland. I will now address some but not all of the concerns raised. I will revert to Senators with fuller answers if necessary in the next couple of days. Senator Warfield raised an issue about capturing and preserving the web and having a full digital deposit system.The committee's recommendation outlines the creation of such a system. It is intended to facilitate the recording, archiving and utilisation for research purposes of websites with Irish domain names, which are not currently archived. While the intention is to record material that may otherwise be removed from the web over time, it is a significant project that requires multi-institutional collaborations and significant resources and skill sets for capturing and preserving Ireland's digital record. I was involved in some of this when I was in this Department a number of years ago. It is a very complicated and an important area, and the Senator is right to highlight it. It is in the report.

An amendment requesting the introduction of such a system was tabled on Committee Stage in Dáil Éireann and resulted in a good discussion with Deputies at the time. The intention to capture the web for preservation purposes is a noble one. However, it is a significant project and not simply a matter of amending copyright legislation. That is a part of it but it would not be enough by itself. Aside from any technical amendment to the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, other issues must be scrutinised when considering and developing any legislative changes. Government issues and public interest issues impact rights holders. The Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht is the Department with responsibility for policy in this area. The Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation and my Department have been actively working together on the matter for some time now and will continue to do so. I want to ensure that a robust regulatory framework is developed and to facilitate the necessary corresponding legislative amendments in due course.

The amendment tabled on Report Stage, which calls for a report to be published on the matter within 12 months of the enactment of the Bill, was accepted and is viewed as a pragmatic way to advance the project while allowing time for the necessary work to take place. The House can be assured that both Departments are actively engaged and a proposal on that report will be prepared as specified in the Bill. I am conscious that the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, is committed to this issue. Senator Warfield probably wanted a quicker answer to his question, but there is a process to go through. The commitment is there to do that. Perhaps the acceptance of the amendment providing for a report within 12 months gives us an end date to having this ready. The Senator might be happy enough with that or he might want to discuss the matter further over the week or two ahead, but the intention is there to achieve what he wants achieved. I think we all see the merits of the proposal; it is just a question of being able to do it properly.

What does the Bill do in respect of digital deposits? The copyright review committee recommends that the Bill broaden the copyright deposit system to enable existing copyright deposit institutions to accept published material in electronic format as well as, or instead of, physical copies. This will benefit copyright deposit institutions, allowing them to collect non-print works to produce a shared archive of digital works and to facilitate the development of Ireland's national printed archive. It will also allow for print works no longer published in hard copy format to be deposited and ensure that continued archive of important documents. This includes many Government reports and documents which are no longer published in hard copy or as a matter of course, so this proposal will probably help in that respect.

Another question Senator Warfield and others raised concerned the copyright council. It is true to say the copyright review committee recommended the establishment of a copyright council with a wide range of functions. The committee envisaged that the board of the council would be comprised of a diverse range of stakeholders with an active interest in different aspects and agendas relating to copyright matters. This ranged from individual authors, composers and photographers to organisations of a large scale with online platforms and included participation of representatives of user organisations, so a long list of people will be required for this. With such a diverse range of stakeholders, it is likely there will be considerable difficulties trying to reach consensus on issues within the council and it will be very difficult to propose a unary view to the Minister in terms of policymaking.

The whole idea of having the council was to be able to bring forward recommendations to the Minister of the day. We are not really sure if that will happen if all these diverse members are on the council. Although the intention of the committee was that the copyright council would be self-financing, this new body will require significant resources in terms of the initial cost involved in the establishment of the council and the ongoing running costs such as staffing, premises, etc.

Senator Warfield mentioned solutions in his contribution. These resources would need to come from within the resources of the Department, which is already stretched, to cover the broad remit of the statutory functions involved. It is also the case that since the publication of the report, some of the proposed functions of the council are no longer necessary, such as the introduction of an orphan works licensing agency in Ireland. Senator Warfield has raised the matter and we will tease it through, including the issues of the cost and the management of it.

It is fair to say that during the process, probably over the past five years, a long list of interested stakeholders has been assembled. Over 400 groups or individuals are now involved in a consultation process with us as a Department. If there are any issues of concern or any changes, they will be immediately consulted through email and so on. This is in a way better than what was there before. It is probably not quite what Senator Warfield wants achieved for the council, but there is that opportunity to engage now. We have the list of people who are interested and we can move along more easily now.

Furthermore, the establishment of a copyright council has not been fully quantified, given the Government's general policy orientation at that time to reduce the number of new public bodies. This goes back to what Senator Warfield said about quangos. There is an aim, and there has been probably since 2011-12, to reduce the number of unnecessary quangos because they get very costly and they grow in their roles and their remits. We are trying to avoid this unless it is really necessary, so it is probably the case that it has just not really been proven yet that the establishment of a copyright council is totally necessary.

There will be an opportunity to debate this more on Committee Stage if Senator Warfield so wishes. Having been involved myself in this originally a couple of years ago, I am not convinced it is needed. What is needed is that proper consultation, which I think is happening quite well now through the Department and the committee structure we have set up here, which I think works very well. There is a cross-party approach to much of the work we do, and the committee is a great place to have this consultation. However, if the Senator wants to press the case a little more with the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, he can do so on Committee Stage later in the week.

Senator Warfield also asked a question about the necessary amendments to transpose the EU directive on the Marrakesh treaty. This directive will be transposed by way of secondary legislation which will be completed by the specified transposition deadline on 11 October. However, this Bill does make a number of changes to the provisions applicable to all persons with a disability. The Bill will allow designated bodies to make multiple accessible format copies of works, transfer those copies to other designated bodies that need them and accept modified copies from other designated bodies. This is a positive amendment which will provide persons with a disability with greater access to works, which I think we all want to achieve if we can.

Senator Reilly raised the benefits of text and data mining. I think he is right. This is why we are trying to make it a little easier. He is right to say this will help research and projects in our educational institutes. We are trying to encourage a lot more co-operation with our private business community along with our own State research community. This means greater access to data with some great results through all the work being done, through Science Foundation Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the tech centres and involving all the various Departments. It is a matter of bringing that kind of information together and our science community together. This will benefit them, and the Senator is right to highlight that. It can lead to great results. He also welcomed the deposit system and the paper society. I think I responded to those points earlier.

A few other points were raised by, I think, Senators Reilly and Mullen on enforcing rights in a modern digital age. It is right to say that access to the lower courts is a step in the right direction because we are all aware of the high costs of getting justice. That cost often prevents justice, so we are trying to deal with and allow for that. The Senators correctly highlight that. I agree that enforcement is important, and the intention is to reduce the costs of accessing justice. Changing the route to access should help reduce those costs, but that is something we can monitor as we go along.

To respond to the last question from Senator Bacik, I know she did not want a full answer on it, and there will be a chance over the week to engage, but the copyright review committee did recommend the introduction of a private copying exception into Irish law. The recommendation outlined that the private copying exception would be framed for private and domestic uses and would cover reproduction on paper for private use, format shifting and reproductions for backup copies.

Copyright law in the UK was amended in 2014 to introduce a private copying exception without a levy. This permitted people to make private copies of legally acquired content and allowed consumers to transfer their own CDs onto their MP3 players, for example, but not allow people to make copies and give them to other people. The UK provision was successfully judicially reviewed based on insufficient evidence shown of the lack of "harm" caused to rights holders and thus quashed in 2015. Given that the exception proposed by the copyright review committee for implementation in Ireland was similar to the failed UK exception, and our expectation that it would almost certainly be legally challenged and struck down, it was decided not to progress the committee's recommendation in this area. Furthermore, my Department does not want to introduce a system of levies in Ireland that would impose additional costs on consumers. This is something we are trying to avoid. Again, though, there will be time over the next week or two for the Senator to look at the matter more with the Minister of State and his officials if she so wishes. I thank the Senator for raising the issue.