David Stanton (Cork East, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senators for what I first thought would be a brief debate but which has turned out to be a considered and thoughtful input into this discussion. Obviously, we are putting the question to the people, who will make the decision at the end of the day as to whether this is to be changed. It is the people's decision and, as has been mentioned by Senator Bacik and others, there have been many reports over the years which have advised that this be put to the people. The people will decide. Colleagues who do not agree can obviously campaign on it but we will see what happens when it goes to the people.

Again, I thank the Seanad for facilitating this debate. Most speakers have welcomed the proposal to remove the offence of blasphemy from the Constitution. If it is passed here today, the work of the Referendum Commission can begin in earnest. An order has already been made under the Referendum Act to establish the independent statutory Referendum Commission for the purpose of the referendum which is planned to be held on 26 October next, at the same time as the presidential election. Again, I think it is good practice to do that because, as mentioned by Senator Bacik and others, it reduces the cost and also facilitates people going to the polls in that they will be voting in the presidential election, and when they are there, they can also give their views on this. I understand that, in accordance with the Act, the Chief Justice has nominated Ms Justice Isobel Kennedy to act as chairperson to the commission. The principal purpose of the commission is to prepare, publish and distribute to the electorate statements containing a general explanation of the subject matter of the referendum proposal, to promote awareness of the referendum and to encourage the electorate to vote. The Government is immensely grateful to the commission for the work it will undertake.

A number of points have arisen in the debate. Some Senators, in particular Senator McDowell, queried the retention of the reference to sedition or indecent matter. I agree that the language is somewhat outdated but this referendum is not a general modernisation of the Constitution. The context is one aimed at removing a provision which may inhibit legitimate freedom of expression because it has the potential to criminalise that expression. There is positive harm here which the proposed constitutional amendment is intended to address. That amendment, if agreed, will also be a small step in emphasising the fact we are a tolerant and inclusive society where diversity and pluralism are evident and where engagement between those with different value systems can take place free of the shadow which the constitutional provision creates. These broader issues around diversity and tolerance do not arise in respect of the reference to sedition and indecency. Indeed, I am sure we can all agree it is right and proper that there would, for example, be an offence relating to the production and distribution of child pornography. Senator McDowell mentioned in his comments that it would want to be very extreme indecency. However, such damaging material is out there and very available, which we should all be very concerned about.

As the years and decades go by, our understanding and definitions of these matters develop and change. Some of what was considered indecent in 1937 would not be considered indecent today. Likewise, I contend that some material and some offences will always be indecent, no matter what or when. That is the way it should be. We must be alert to that and keep debating it, and I welcome the questioning on that. I agree with regard to the logic behind offences intended to criminalise acts aimed at attacking the constitutional order and institutions of the State, and I suggest we are at one on that. However, the same imperative to amend the Constitution does not exist in regard to these matters as it does in regard to blasphemy. The Senator spoke about extremes where religion is concerned. If we go that far, we get very quickly into the area of incitement of hatred. There is a balance to be struck there as well.

I am not sure whether Senator McDowell is for or against the proposal. I did not hear him say one thing or the other in the end. However, I welcome the questioning, which is important. We have general support for the Government's proposal in the House, which I welcome. Hopefully, the tone of the campaign to come will also be respectful. I hope that when people see the merits of the proposal, they will vote for deletion. As I said, there have been repeated calls over the years for the removal of the blasphemy reference from the Constitution and there have been many advocates for change in this area. It has taken quite a while to bring this to the Houses but we now have an opportunity to deal with the matter and put it to the people. We are a modern and democratic society where freedom of expression is a core value and we no longer need a constitutional provision, however notional, that acts as an undesirable check to that value. I very much hope the proposal to remove the offence of blasphemy will get widespread support on 26 October next.

By way of response to Senator Mullen, the existence of our current constitutional provisions in regard to blasphemy creates an imperative to give effect to that provision in primary legislation. It does not matter that there have been no successful prosecutions of the offence in living memory. The provision is there and it identifies Ireland, however incorrectly, as a country which does not value freedom of expression and as a country which gives constitutional protections to a concept which many would regard as obsolete. Its very existence supports those in other countries where the concept of blasphemy has a very real meaning, a meaning which can entail considerable suffering for those who fall to be punished under the law which supports it. Senator Bacik and others have alluded to the fact our situation has been used in other jurisdictions in support of that.

Senator Mullen also raised the possibility that the blasphemy reference should be replaced by a general provision to include a prohibition on incitement to religious hatred. In reaching its decision as to the course of action to be followed, the Government is conscious of the fact the provision relating to incitement to hatred is likely to prove very difficult to draft at a practical level. Furthermore, the Government took the view that the Constitution was not the place to address this matter and that the specifics of any incitement to hatred provisions were best addressed in primary legislation, which could, if necessary, evolve over time in an organic way.

Again, I thank colleagues for a good debate and for raising some important matters. I look forward to the remaining Stages.