Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

-----that has been mentioned on four or five occasions by Senator Craughwell and others. There was direct consultation. It did not consist of phone calls. It was round-table consultation that was meaningful. It might not have produced the desired result for everybody in the room. Agreement was not reached with the Judiciary. That seemed to be a step too far. I do not think it is any surprise that there was something of a disagreement. I do not believe that in all circumstances, Government should have been unduly influenced by members of the legal profession or the Judiciary but they were accommodated in many respects. There were meetings with the then Tánaiste and judges; meetings with the then Tánaiste and the Association of Judges of Ireland, as evidenced by the documentation from which Senator McDowell; and meetings involving the Attorney General, the Chief Justice and the Taoiseach along with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport himself on occasion. I speak from facts within my own knowledge. Early in my tenure as Minister for Justice and Equality, I had a meeting with all the presidents of the courts wherein this Bill was discussed. I was very pleased to give due consideration to some of the proposals put forward and I evidenced the amendment to ensure direct representation on the commission by all the presidents of the courts. To my recollection, that was a very important step forward and one that was referred to by GRECO as being somewhat important.

In response to Senators Craughwell, McDowell, Norris and Humphreys, the changes as referred to in the GRECO report - it was a point raised by Senator Bacik earlier when she referred to a draft of the report and the final report - were not solely from negotiations but from attendance by senior officials in my Department at a plenary session of GRECO a couple of weeks ago. At that session, officials from my Department were happy and satisfied to answer questions and queries and hear submissions and observations from GRECO resulting in some of the changes that have been referred to. Ultimately, I do not believe it is any great surprise that full agreement was not reached and I say this with the greatest of respect for GRECO, with which we will continue to engage. One will see from reading the report that there might be a greater level of reference in the fourth report to the Judicial Council Bill than there is to the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill. We will, of course, continue to engage with GRECO. This is the fourth evaluation round. I have spoken to the Minister for Public and Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, with a view to ensuring that another important legislative item that is referred to in the GRECO report will be processed through the House, which is happening. We have the Judicial Council Bill, which is currently before this House, and where I would like to see progress at the earliest opportunity. However, I doubt it is going to happen over the next ten days or so.

We keep in constant contact with GRECO. We are anxious to ensure that we have a very positive and sound relationship with it but when it cites European standards, it is no doubt aware that we operate in a different system in terms of the administration of justice compared with that of many European states and that our appointments regime is more aligned to our colleagues across the water in the UK. I referred to that earlier. I am satisfied that the Bill will actually strengthen judicial independence rather than weaken it.

I will briefly refer to the point raised by Senator Mark Daly when he asked whether a person with a criminal record could become a member of the commission. I refer the Senator to section 19(2), which provides that a person shall not be eligible for appointment as a member of the commission if, among other things, that person has been convicted on indictment of an offence. Senator Humphreys raised the question of the cost and whether it will be €1 million. I do not expect this to be the cost. It might be a little over half that amount. Obviously, it is very difficult to make a an absolute prediction here but I expect that the changes that have been made to the Bill in the course of its passage - the other committees or sub-committees that will not now be proceeded with - will ensure that there will be just a commission and the procedures committee. I do not expect the cost to be of the order of €1 million.

As regards the start-up date, my recollection from last week is that I did point to the Legal Services Regulatory Authority. I think I said something in the region of nine to 12 months. I see Senator McDowell has exercised the rubber band on that and has now mentioned two years. I am not sure whether I did mention two years but I would expect that within a period of two years, the new commission would certainly be up and running. I would be disappointed if that was not the case.

I believe section 10 is the core of the Bill. The commission shall consist of 17 members. I note that some amendments were put and defeated but having interrogated the section, I recommend that it stands part of the Bill and that we would proceed to the following sections.