Mark Daly (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

A fair point. I accept the ruling from the Chair.

The report states that GRECO urges the authorities to reconsider this matter in order to limit potential risks of improper influence from the Executive or political power over the appointment process to the Judiciary, or any perception thereof, and to do so in close co-operation with the judicial authorities. We all know that perception is reality and we are all aware of the flaws of this Bill and the political rationale behind it, not the fact that we are looking for a better way of appointing judges, bearing in mind that we all accept there is no perfect way to do it. The proposal spoken about earlier for a US-style system, where judges are appointed by the Executive with the approval of the Senate, is not something we want to drift towards given the entirely politicised system in the United States. In this context, GRECO concludes that recommendation vii has not been implemented.

Paragraph 40 of the report states the Government of Ireland maintains its position that the establishment of the Public Service Pay Commission is relevant for this recommendation, in light of Article 35 of the Constitution, which provides for judicial independence and safeguards regarding remuneration and that in this context, there is no provision to provide separate structural pay determination arrangements for the Judiciary. We all know of the controversies that arose during the tenure of the previous Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on the issue of judicial pay cuts and their constitutionality. We hope to avoid any idea that the political system is trying to cut pay to get judges to retire. The report notes that representatives of the Judiciary, in respect of the aforementioned recommendation vii, take issue with this position as this recommendation extends beyond the question of pay determination arrangements to issues that have direct impact on judicial independence, integrity and quality.

While there are numerous recommendation, the conclusion in paragraph 52 states that in view of the foregoing, GRECO concludes that Ireland has still only implemented satisfactorily or dealt with in a satisfactory manner three of the 11 recommendations contained in the fourth-round evaluation report. Four recommendations have been partly implemented and four recommendations have not been implemented. The report concluded that recommendations ii and iv have been dealt with in a satisfactory manner while recommendation xi has been implemented satisfactorily but that recommendations i, iii, v and vi have been partly implemented and recommendations vii to x remain not implemented.

Although we have not complied with the recommendations of this evaluation report, I note we are powering ahead with this Bill and its amendments. Moreover, the appointments do not enhance the diversity within the Judiciary or the legal profession. On this side of the House, Members have raised both the appointments and the training judges should go through to qualify as judges. They should not depend only on their legal experience but should have training in respect of victims of rape because in this jurisdiction, in general the judges, good or bad, are middle-aged to elderly men who have come from the middle class and who all have a third level education. Their world experience is very limited and having empathy training with those from minority groups and with the victims of crime is not required.I could be wrong and it could be in a section I have not studied but surely, if one is appointing judges, one of the criteria for appointment even to be put on a list should be to go through that level of training. This is the opportunity to do that. Before they are considered, they should have to go through an eight-week course, sit an exam or undertake something of that description. Time and again we have seen fines and suspended sentences being handed down for the most horrendous crimes. Comments by some members of the Judiciary while giving out the sentence re-victimise the victim in many cases. We saw it in my own county of Kerry, where a judge allowed a perpetrator, who was convicted, to have his hand shaken by members of the public in the courtroom when the sentence was handed down. That should never happen. The woman was re-victimised. We have seen it in child abuse cases where sentences do not even come close to fitting the crime. In the Minister, Deputy Ross's desire for reform, where is the desire to ensure that judges are not just legally qualified but are also qualified to hand down sentences and have an understanding of the world they do not inhabit in terms of-----