Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

To compare the work, powers, authority and modus operandiof the non-legal members of the commission to those of juries is probably a misapplication or a misunderstanding. It will not be like that at all. It will be more akin to membership of a State board. I am sure there are plenty of Senators who could draw much experience from interaction with State boards. I will come back to that.

Amendment No. 7 seeks to insert the new section 7 as outlined by Senators Humphreys and Bacik, making provision for obligations on the part of the PAS and the commission to uphold judicial independence, in essence providing for restrictions on the motivations of persons seeking to be appointed as lay members and on information that may be provided or asked of a person applying for office. I do not disagree with the principle underpinning the amendment. It is important for us, as legislators, to acknowledge - particularly in the context of change we are now experiencing - that the Irish Judiciary is highly rated. Ireland is regarded highly on the international stage in the matter of our judicial independence and GRECO acknowledges that, as do other international fora dealing with this issue.

We are fortunate in having an independent Judiciary. When we consider many other states, we could go as far as to say that our Judiciary is perhaps uniquely independent in the performance of its work. That will not change under the Bill.

I wish to make a point to Senator Bacik and if the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, has made it already, I will be brief. The Bill contains reference to the PAS which has the function of selecting the lay members and, in particular, the lay chair. I am not sure what we can do by way of amendment. This is where the Senator's amendment could impinge on the independence of the PAS, which would be problematic. The PAS is independent in the performance of its duty. The body is only a few years in operation. I acknowledge that it continues to deliver a high standard of service to the State. It operates to the highest standards and is independent in how it operates.I am not sure of the extent to which it would be desirable for us to introduce amendments to this Bill that would have an impact on the independence of the PAS. The fact of the matter - we need to get back to this time and again in the context of what we are saying here - is that all appointments are based on merit. The specific qualities indicated in section 12 will be the only criteria benchmarked in the selection of lay members. I am not sure about the basis for adding any further conditionality to that role. I can tell Senators Humphreys and Bacik that I am not sure I would have the authority to do so, having regard to the independence of the PAS. I reiterate that I do not have an issue with the principle underpinning the amendment. That is why I welcome the debate.

I apologise to Senators for leaving the Chamber for ten minutes, but I had a duty to go to the Dáil to deal with a matter pertaining to the Garda Commissioner-designate. I am sorry for discommoding Senators in that regard.

The canvassing restrictions set out in section 62 clearly provide that any applicant for judicial office who canvasses any person involved in the process for support shall be guilty of an offence. This measure covers any untoward influencing of a decision to be made by the PAS, or by the commission. On balance, I am satisfied that the functions given to the PAS and the commission, when taken with the provisions relating to the composition of the commission and the relevant provisions of the Bill concerning judicial independence, restrictions on canvassing and matters relating to confidentiality, comprise a robust protection of the integrity of the roles assigned. I acknowledge that Senator McDowell has tabled an amendment on the matter of confidentiality, which we will deal with later. I am also satisfied that, on balance, we are addressing the important issues which gave rise to the concern expressed by Senator Bacik and which lie behind this amendment. If I can reflect further on the matter between now and Report Stage in a manner that allays ongoing concerns, I will be happy to do so. I caution against any perceived or actual interference with the independence of the PAS that this Bill might have.

I want to respond briefly to what Senator McDowell said about part-time and full-time positions. I remind him that section 11 provides that each member of the commission shall "act on a part-time basis subject to .... terms and conditions". I expect that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will give consent or approval for a stipend or expenses, just as it does in respect of any service on a State board. I do not expect that these positions will be full-time or anything like it. I am reluctant to name names, but it is right to acknowledge the experience and expertise of Deputy Jim O'Callaghan in this regard. During the Committee Stage debate in the Dáil, the Deputy's strong view was that there would not be sufficient work or engagement to make this an attractive position. Senator McDowell, who has a lifelong body of experience and expertise in this area, takes the opposite view. He believes the volume of work will deter people from making applications in the first instance. Deputy O'Callaghan argued that because there are approximately 50 appointments a year, the commission will not have sufficient engagement to make it a worthwhile proposition.