Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

Most lawyers are reluctant to embrace the type of reform envisaged in this Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that "lay member" includes the chairperson. The term "lay member" is used in that context throughout the legislation. It is an important component of this Bill. In many respects, this proposal sits neatly with the debate on the previous amendment in terms of ensuring there is sufficient scope in the chair and the composition of the commissions to incorporate people of a non-judicial, non-legal background. That is why a fundamental tenet will be a lay majority and the non-legal or lay chairperson. I do not subscribe to the argument that just because a person is a non-legal person he or she will not understand what it takes to be a judge or to practice law. It has to be accepted that there are many people of a non-legal background, people who are not judges, who are entitled to have thrust upon them the role as envisaged in the Bill.In any event, the non-legal or lay person may have practised law for a period previously. What we need to look at here is whether that person, irrespective of his or her legal qualification or background, is suitable and appropriate. The person must be a fit and proper person by reason of his or her qualifications, not necessarily legal qualifications, and his or her experience, skills, training and expertise as is provided for in section 12(5) and in my ministerial amendment No. 36.

There was considerable debate, particularly on the part of Senator McDowell, about the motivation of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Ross. We are not dealing with a Private Members' Bill or a Bill of some years ago from the Opposition; we are dealing with reforming legislation that is not unique to Ireland in terms of the composition of the commission. Senator McDowell said the concept of non-legal or lay representation on the commission is not unique to Ireland. In our neighbouring jurisdictions of England, Wales and Scotland, the appointment boards are chaired by non-legal, lay persons. In Northern Ireland the Chief Justice presides over the appointments commission. In England and Wales there is a non-legal, non-judicial chair of the commission. In Scotland the appointments board has a non-legal, non-judicial, lay chair. Our neighbouring jurisdictions were not motivated to act on a Private Members' Bill of an Opposition Senator or Deputy of some years ago. There is no doubt the reformed systems in which commissions operate in our neighbouring jurisdictions are working well. It is important we look at emerging best practice in that regard in neighbouring jurisdictions. There is no agenda behind the measures that can be characterised as suggestive of a need to minimise the role of serving judges in the process. Less still is there any distrust of the manner in which our senior judges have conducted the recommendation process over the years. I reject any assertion of cronyism, inside tracks or jobs for the boys and girls.