John Dolan (Independent) | Oireachtas source

Senator Conway spoke about someone being lucky. Senator Clifford-Lee spoke of how she had been lucky. Anything and everything we do here must be about people not having to be lucky to have opportunity or support in life. Diversity is at the heart of that.

Several Senators have mentioned disability, and I thank them for that. Disability goes beyond class. It can and does visit anybody and everybody at some point, if not directly, then people close to them. I will not labour my interest in the UN convention but it is moving us on a trajectory which is interesting regarding what we are discussing this evening. In the past, disabled people did not get within an ass's roar of the law because they were confined either at home or in institutions. They were not, generally, out and about. It is when people go out and about that issues relating to justice, equality, participation, fair treatment and so on, arise. We have people with disabilities who will be misunderstood because they do not present like, dare I say, a normal man or woman might. I have seen court cases where, because people presented obviously as being disabled - they might have had slurred speech, for instance, or may have had Down's syndrome - a view might have been taken that they could not be a good witness. There are issues, and more will arise, because disabled people are out in society. I am just raising this, not as a warning, but we will see more expressions of humanity around in society. That will give rise to issues which come before the courts and other quasi-judicial bodies.

I welcome the focus on diversity. Dare I say this in a legislative assembly, but I am not too bothered that there is some awkwardness in the phraseology and language. The important thing is that we struggle with this and even if we do not get it totally right, that we leave it there as best we can. Several Senators have suggested that the Minister and his officials might go back and hone this a little better.

The other side of better understanding diversity is an awareness of the possible and often real bias that each and every one of us has. We need others to arrest us from that. If there are some 16 men and women, some with legal backgrounds and some lay people, sitting in good faith - and I do not see that they would not do so - they will divine among themselves the ways and means to better understand and deal with diversity.

I refer to section 12, where once again, the term diversity is used. Section 12(4) states, "Subject to subsection (5), in conducting a selection process under subsection (3) for the purpose of recommending lay persons under that subsection for appointment, the Public Appointments Service shall have regard to", and then lists them in subsections (a), (b), and (c). Subsection (a) states, "the objective that the lay members of the Commission should, amongst them, possess knowledge of, and experience in, as many as possible of the matters specified in subsection (6)". Subsection (c) states, "the objective that the lay members of the Commission should reflect the diversity of the population as a whole." I will not take time to go through each of these forensically but the term "diversity" is being steered and is not just left as a wild card or statement in there. The 15 or 16 men and women that will work on that will be well able, between themselves, to challenge each other, consider and come to worthy judgments.

Tomorrow and the day after, our criminal courts will have groups of 12 men and women, picked largely randomly, one of whom will be the foreman, if that is the correct term still, or the cathaoirleach of that group, in a sense. We trust them with the infrastructure of the judicial system, the expertise of barristers and solicitors and the watchful eye of the judge to move in the direction of making the fairest and soundest decision they can. I cannot see how this has to be terribly different.

I take an interest in a particular sport, namely, hurling. Sometimes if I see a team playing the man more than the ball, I begin to think that they do not have the skill and are not up to the contest. I am uncomfortable with the extent that I have seen that in this Chamber tonight. We have heard references to two Ministers by several Senators. What confuses me is that those Senators do have a lot of skill and expertise in argument, communication and so on. I would be more comfortable if we confined ourselves to the actual texts and arguments. In a court case, the motivation of somebody who is the defendant must at some point give way to consideration of the act that they did or did not do. Motivation may be important, following a conviction, on what the sentence may be but one must stick with the act. That is not a pun. We need to concentrate on the draft Act, to try to hone it and make it better.

Recently, regarding the eighth amendment, we saw the notion of compassion and of how understanding moved to compassion. People charged with the appointment of judges need to have the opportunity to bring that to bear and for there to be somebody who has empathy and brings the different experiences they have in life with them.

This Chamber has a Cathaoirleach, the other House a Ceann Comhairle and a jury has a foreman.What are the great parliamentary qualifications that these people must possess? Where do Ministers come from? How are they appointed? They are appointed, they have guidelines and rules and regulations to follow and they have support staff. I see no reason why a layperson could not be a competent cathaoirleach in light of the supports that would reasonably be put in place for him or her. Is there a lack of confidence in laypersons among those who say that the chairperson has to be a member of the legal profession? I find that amazing, because they are the people who go into court and act either on behalf of or against defendants. Such individuals make a case and address a jury of ordinary people. We put supports in place in respect of those juries. There are rules they must follow, such as, among other things, not engaging on Twitter. We can deal with this competently and the basis for doing so is contained in the Bill.

There has been much discussion about the need for excellent communication skills. Sometimes I think we should settle for excellent listening skills as the basis for good communication. People have two ears but only one mouth. We should all remember that.

I return to the issue of disability. At the outset, I said that disability is not a class issue. However, I accept that one finds more disability in disadvantaged communities. I am thinking of a person - I am not going to mention a name - who is a very eminent professional and involved in public service. As a result of an accident, this individual now requires a wheelchair and is trying to continue in their chosen profession. The person in question is discovering the issues faced by a disabled individual when it comes to transport accessibility. Trams or DARTs or buses are often not accessible or are not accessible at every station. There is a constant need for us all to become more conscious of what it is like to be in the position of another person. There is a real opportunity to do that here. We should seize that opportunity. The Bill makes provision for a review of its operation in five years' time. That is not a long time;tempus fugit. We can do something decent here to move things on a bit, which would give the public more confidence. The perception of the public may not be 100%, but the perception is what the public works off. This measure can assist that.