Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Norris. That is good to hear. If I was going down that route now, I do not think I would make it. For a young person to become a solicitor now, he or she has to do a series of unpaid internships before he or she gets an apprenticeship. He or she then has to pay huge fees to the Law Society. Luckily, mine were discharged by the practice by which I was employed but not many practices do that these days. This whole phenomenon of unpaid internships was not around when I was training. I am thankful for that because I would not have made it through otherwise.

Senator Ruane rightly pointed out the access programmes available in many universities which allow people to come through. However, getting a law degree is just the very first step on a very long ladder. Fair enough, people might be getting their law degrees, but they are not moving on to practise as solicitors or barristers. There might be a minimum wage for trainee solicitors but it does not allow people from rural backgrounds who would have to live in Dublin or one of the big cities to access these opportunities. As I have said, the unpaid internships exist. Who can afford to do unpaid internships well into their 20s? As a barrister, one has to have very wealthy parents to support one for one's first ten years practising law, by which time one would be well into one's 30s. Again, who can afford to do that? Only people from a very small group. That is the reality of it. I ask the Minister to look at this and see what kind of programmes or scholarships could be put in place. It is not good enough that we have people getting law degrees and not being able to access the legal professions. If there are not people accessing it at this point, they will not make it to practising law for ten years in order to become judges in the first instance. They are not going to be there. I would not be there, and there are plenty more besides me.

Senator McDowell referred to women now making up the majority of both the solicitor and barrister professions, but they are not making it to the top. Last year, we had the very first judge ever to take maternity leave in Ireland. It was nearly the talk of the country. It was definitely the talk of this town. I do not think anybody has taken maternity leave since. That paints a picture. Young women are not becoming judges. Women are not becoming judges at the rate they should. We do not have female partners in law firms. I have been qualified for almost ten years and among the colleagues with whom I qualified, the women are being left behind. They are not becoming partners in their law firms. They have been denied bonuses because they had the audacity to have a child. This can happen not only in the year in which bonuses are being handed out, but at any stage in their careers. They are being denied bonuses, they are not getting the same opportunities and they are not progressing. It is very difficult for women to progress at the Bar as well.

There is a culture in place and we are not going to have people of diverse backgrounds becoming judges until that culture is seriously addressed by the Government. I would like the Minister to reflect on that and perhaps to work with Senator Ruane because what she is proposing has its merits. It is, however, a bit premature because we will not have the people coming up through the ranks to actually fill these positions in years to come. Senator Conway referred to different costs that would be involved if a person needed to have a courtroom adapted.