Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

As many Members raised the issue of pay, that will be the first issue I will address. Thereafter, I will try to go through as many of the issues people have raised with me as possible. There have been significant improvements in pay for members of the Defence Forces under the Lansdowne Road agreement, particularly for lower-paid members. The pay scales will increase further in all ranks over the lifetime of the Public Service Stability Agreement 2018-2020. The Permanent Defence Force representative associations participated in the negotiations on the agreement and their members subsequently voted to accept the terms of the agreement. I acknowledge both PDFORRA and RACO for their participation in this regard, as well as for the excellent working relationship I have with them.

Senator Gallagher raised people's eligibility for working family payment. This is determined having regard to criteria such as family income and the number of dependants. Circumstances surrounding an application for working family payment, formerly known as the family income supplement, is a private matter between the applicant and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. Family income and the number of dependants are key variables in determining eligibility. Public service pay is determined having regard to the specific public service position, skill levels etc. and not family circumstances. The Senator mentioned 300 privates - I am not sure but by the time he had finished totting up, he reached a figure of more than 750 members of the Irish Defence Forces who were in receipt of this payment. I encourage the Senator to go back to where he got those figures because he is making a huge mistake. There are fewer than 100, or just a touch over 100, members of the Irish Defence Forces in receipt of this family payment. Like all this stuff that is out there in the ether, it is absolutely false. In a similar manner to the texts and tweets that go out, a huge amount of it is totally false. Everyone came in here and they are so proud of the Irish Defence Forces, as I absolutely am. I have to compliment Senator Leyden, who did not criticise the Defence Forces organisation. I compliment him on that, as well as my party colleague, Senator Colm Burke. They did not go out and start throwing out figures that there are gaps here and there and everything like that because some of the information that has been put out this evening is totally untrue. Senator Gallagher's comments on the family income supplement are totally untrue. I hope that on some occasion, the Senator will come back into the House and withdraw that figure because that is damaging. In one sentence he stated he was very proud of the Defence Forces and I do not fault that. I believe him 100%, as does every Member, but I ask him to please not put out misinformation. Alternatively, if he has information and wants to get it checked by me I will do my best to do that. However, that observation is totally untrue.

In some quarters, the example that a commandant with four children could qualify for working family payment is being used as an example of low pay. The annual salary for a commandant paying class A PRSI ranges between €63,644 and €77,129, including the military service allowance and depending on points on the pay scale. Moreover, there are higher rates of pay for specialists serving in the engineering corps, the legal services office etc., as well as in other areas. While individuals in receipt of annual salaries of amounts in excess of €60,000 may have their own financial difficulties arising from personal circumstances, a basic salary amount of this nature cannot be considered as low pay.

Senator Leyden spoke about the military personnel, particularly those who have a skill set which is directly transferable to non-military work and is very attractive for prospective employers. He is dead right. We have a challenge. I highlighted it. I am not hiding in saying that we have a challenge in that regard, be it in respect of pilots, air traffic controllers or engineers.I accept that they are going out into the private sector. I am happy to say that was highlighted in the report by the Public Service Pay Commission which was published in May 2017. Subsequently, on 17 October, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, prioritised two specific areas to be addressed under specialist pay, namely, the health sector and the Defence Forces. When we submit information to the Public Service Pay Commission we must submit real data. We are currently working with the military management on the issue. A pilot submission has already been made to the Public Service Pay Commission but it is based on data and evidence. That is what we have been asked to do by the officials and I have ensured that is the approach that has been taken.

Retention of certain specialist personnel within the Defence Forces was specifically referenced in the first report of the Public Service Pay Commission. The commission has commenced the process and is examining in more detail the recruitment and retention challenges within the Defence Forces. The Department of Defence has been requested to provide hard data and detailed evidence for the commission. Military management has provided some material for consideration. The type and extent of the material requested by the Department in connection with specialist personnel within the specific corps and services is proving more difficult to obtain. I am not going to put in a half-hearted effort, nor are my officials going to do it. They will put in the full facts and the data that are needed and required.

I will respond to the points raised by Senator Craughwell. The manpower requirement of the Defence Forces is monitored on an ongoing basis in accordance with the operational requirements of each of the three services. Personnel deployed by units or engaged in development training should not be confused with vacancies. Units are maintained in order that personnel can deploy, not for units to remain fully manned in barracks. I recently spoke to a senior military officer about gap analysis. I thought what he said was a genuine example of the gaps we have. I accept there are challenges in that regard. When a fire engine is deployed to the scene of a fire or accident one does not bring in additional fire engines to the base while others are in use. If we send people overseas, of course there will be gaps. If personnel are taken from Cork, Galway or Kilkenny then I accept there will be gaps but we must manage with the resources that are left behind. I have been assured by military management that the Defence Forces are capable of carrying out all of the duties required of them within the White Paper and all that is expected by the Government.

The Defence Forces have always drawn personnel from units for overseas service and other employments and personnel also engage in training on an ongoing basis. It is important that military personnel have experience of a full range of duties so that they can be part of a military force in a situation where they may be called upon to reinforce operations in various parts of the country. We have seen that specifically during the recent bad weather and snow in March. Military personnel can be deployed to locations where the relevant experience can be gained. That is to be welcomed. Any decisions regarding scaling back on overseas deployments, deployment at home or for training will be informed by the advice of the Chief of Staff. I can confirm that I have not received such advice to date.

Currently, 640 members of the Defence Forces personnel are serving on overseas duties. That is a significant contribution in the context of the resources available for defence. The majority are serving in the Middle East, including Ireland's current contribution of 375 personnel participating in UNIFIL. This year not only marks the 60th anniversary of Ireland's first participation in UN peacekeeping but also marks the 40th anniversary of Ireland's first deployment to Lebanon as part of the UNIFIL mission. In recognition of that we are planning a programme of events to commemorate the anniversaries during the summer.

From speaking to my ministerial colleagues across the EU I know that the retention challenges we face in this country are also an issue for many other military forces, in particular in the filling of specialist posts. Work is under way to address the challenges. That will remain a priority for me personally as Minister of State.

The Department has forwarded an initial tranche of information to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform relating to Air Corps pilots. Further material on the challenges in the defence sector will be submitted to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the coming weeks when the collation of data and information is completed. The submission will be finalised shortly and will be sent to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which is co-ordinating the responses on behalf of the Public Service Pay Commission.

Senator Leyden raised an issue. I agree with what he said about PDFORRA and RACO. I work very closely with them. It is my duty as Minister to work closely with them. I meet them annually and discuss with them any issues that arise.

Senator Craughwell spoke about the White Paper on Defence 2015. The review is expected towards the end of 2018. Society has changed since 2015 but we must be able to face the challenges. We will address them. I have every confidence in all of the security services, be it An Garda Síochána or the Defence Forces assisting An Garda Síochána as an aid to the civil power when required. I do not believe there is a crisis but I accept there are challenges. I did not want to come in here this evening and say that everything is rosy in the garden, let us move on, there is nothing to see here. I want to be truthful and upfront and tell Members exactly what is happening. We have challenges but we are working to address them.

Senator Leyden referred to the contracts. I am reviewing the 1994 and the 2006 contracts at the moment. In terms of people exiting the organisation, he referred to more than 30 cadets exiting in 2017. That is totally untrue. A total of 12 cadets exited in 2017 for various reasons. It would be like someone going into politics and not liking it in the first term and leaving. If a person loves politics he or she will stay. If a person goes into teaching, nursing or the Army, if he or she does not like it he or she will get out. The reasons for the 12 cadets leaving vary and they include medical reasons. A total of 209 personnel in training left.