Kevin Humphreys (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I listened very carefully to the contribution from Senator Kieran O'Donnell and there is clearly not enough information. This must be tackled. Working on the Permanent TSB figures, it seems that 6,500 of the loans are performing loans. The first fact we must establish is why performing loans are being sold.

There is a large job for the Government to do in engaging with the European Central Bank. We need to change the definition of non-performing loans, as the vast majority of loans in the bank are performing. For example, split mortgages are performing loans. Interest-only mortgages must be renegotiated but they are performing. People have signed up to agreements of warehousing portions and paying other portions, and in my mind, all such loans are performing loans. The bank must do the hard work of engaging and assisting people through their difficulties. I do not stand over people wilfully refusing to repay their mortgages but they are tiny in number. They do not make up a large proportion of those 20,000 loans.

Since 2008 the banking sector has dominated debate in this country. Whether it was Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or the Labour Party, we sought to re-establish a functioning banking sector. In their own minds, the people in these banks see the sector as functioning now but the customer has been forgotten. One can consider a small business trying to start in Ireland and the differential between interest rates being charged on loans compared with a similar company trying to start on the Continent. There is a 3% to 4% differential in interest rates. If young families are trying to get into the housing market and buy a family home, we can see a 3% to 4% differential between mortgage repayments and interest rates charged. The banks are taking for granted the support of the Government and political parties in refinancing banks. They are refinancing themselves by overcharging on interest rates and trying to throw families to the sharks when they do not sit down and go through the hard yards, helping people negotiate and work their way from debt and non-performing loans. I support Senator Kieran O'Donnell completely in that regard. This process must be delayed, if not stopped. Permanent TSB has a responsibility to the State and its citizens, who bailed out all these banks. It should work with the individuals and help them out of debt. If there are to be write-downs, allow the families that have warehoused their loan, split their mortgage or gone interest only the opportunity to get the benefits.

We are not in the midst of a financial crisis and the State is adequately funded. As we are constantly being told, our banking systems are in recovery. The banks now have a debt to this State that must be repaid. It is a very minor part of this debt to sit down with the families involved in this case. We have heard people say these are real people and family homes. The buy-to-let properties are family homes as well. They may have two functions, as they might be a pension for a small businessman as well. Nobody is sitting down, talking and engaging on this.

Let us take today's comments from Fine Gael. The loans should not be sold until we know the information. If everybody in the House is proven wrong, I will hold up my hands and say the 20,000 people involved were trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I can guarantee we will not be proven wrong and there will not be 20,000 families trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

I give credit where it is due. For the past number of years, Senator Norris has argued for mortgage holders in difficulty, and so too did Lord Churchtown and the Independent Alliance. Lord Churchtown would have been taking his glasses off and spitting blood and thunder about how bad things really were and about how bad the banks really were and he would be demanding of the Government to take out the Permanent TSB bankers and hang them and flog them. I am asking Lord Churchtown-----