Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Joan Freeman and acknowledge her contribution, not only on this legislation but to the cause in general. I welcome every opportunity we get to highlight the issues and challenges faced in the mental health system. I do not mind hearing about the bad stories and more of them because they all give me an insight. It is important that we all maintain a balance when speaking about mental health. There are many very vulnerable persons to whom we are trying to reach out and whom we are trying to encourage to seek help and come into the system. We do not want to send the message that the system is a basket case or that it is not fit for purpose. Therefore, we have a responsibility at all times to watch the language we use. We also have a responsibility to the staff who amount to almost 10,000, the vast majority of whom are superb, committed, dedicated and really generous. They give great service. We should keep this in mind when making overall statements on the health service.

I wish to address the specific issue raised in the Bill for which I commend Senator Joan Freeman. I have had considerable engagement with her on it and on every occasion found her extremely passionate and willing. I admit that she was not always easy to work with because of her passion and conviction, but she always worked with the best interests of the service user at heart. She has been challenging and certainly challenged me as Minister of State and also my officials from time to time. However, that is most welcome as that is her role. The day the previous Taoiseach appointed her was a good one for mental health services and this House as everybody in it recognises. I support the comments made in that regard.

I wish to address the specifics of the Bill and outline the issues and challenges we face. Legislation is a great tool and can be very effective, but it can also be very challenging for practitioners. From the outset the Senator acknowledged the difficulty with a black and white Bill when it was pointed out to her. Eighteen years is the arbitrary age we have chosen at which a young person becomes an adult. Although it is not proposed, if we were to implement legislation today stipulating that nobody under the age of 18 years could be placed in an adult unit, it could have unintended consequences. That is what the practitioners have told us. There are 17 year olds who might be more suited, physically and otherwise, to an adult facility.They may be very big or very strong. Even though they are 17, they may be more suited to being in an adult unit. There may also be people who are 18 but who have issues of delayed development which have left them very childlike. It may be more appropriate for such a person to be in a children's unit. There are also issues with availability at any given time. There may be a place in an adult unit but none in a children's unit. Family preferences also play a role. This is what clinicians say. This is not the Government or anybody else speaking, it is the people who practise in this area. They will say that a crude instrument which puts everybody over 18 into an adult unit and everybody under 18 into a child centre will not always result in the best available outcome. It could result in a situation whereby a 17 year old is denied a service because there is no place for him or her in a child unit on a given night and he or she is not allowed into the adult unit because of legislation. Perhaps it is the lesser of two evils to place such a person in an adult unit. There are very strict protocols. When a child is put into an adult unit, the Mental Health Commission has to be notified straight away and there is a certain list of protocols to be adhered to. That is just by way of background and to let Senators know that it is not black and white or straightforward, as I am sure they understand. That is what it makes this issue difficult and challenging for all of us to deal with.

To deal with specifics, I also acknowledge Senator Kelleher's contribution and her two amendments. The Senator is aware of the issue with her two amendments which propose to amend section 2. If we accept the amendments which Senator Freeman has tabled, then section 2 will be amended. It will then be very difficult to accept the other amendments because they should be made to the Bill, as amended. Although it is a decision for herself, I ask Senator Kelleher to consider resubmitting the amendments on Report Stage. It is a technicality, that is all. It is not that I do not believe that staff should be appropriately trained. That is not what I am saying. It is just that the Senator has proposed to amend section 2, but we are about to change that section so those amendments cannot technically be facilitated. I hope that she will resubmit them on Report Stage. I can work with her in the meantime and we can facilitate the amendments. It is a technicality, but this is a decision for the Senator herself.