Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the comments of the Senators present. It is worth noting the small number of Senators who showed an interest in this significant Bill. The unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest legislation, FEMPI, in such an orderly way affects every parish, community and public servant. I thank the Senators who have stayed for the debate.

Senator Michael McDowell put a personal matter on the record, and I will too. I was a new entrant teacher in 2008. I went back and qualified as a teacher, as did many of my cohort when the country was banjaxed and fell asunder. Many of us, for one reason or another, had been made redundant. We entered into the public service in the full knowledge that we were entering into a different pay agreement and pay rate. That was difficult but nobody has a monopoly on politics as to what is and is not a fair rate and the commitment to unwind it.

The Government has, through the public services agreement, the cornerstone on which this legislation is based, and with the agreement of the unions, an oversight body built into the agreement, which will examine the exact way in which we can make progress on pay parity. This is a matter the Government takes seriously. As a Minister of State I take it seriously when many of my contemporaries are affected by this.

In dealing with it, however, we have to be mindful of the amount of fiscal space we have and the cost of ensuring we can do this. We cannot do it in one fell swoop. We want to do it in an orderly way. That is why the majority of unions and public servants have voted for this agreement. That is why this legislation needs to be enacted as soon as possible to ensure we can pay people on 1 January 2018.

Several amendments were proposed in the other House. One, which was accepted and proposed by Fianna Fáil, provides for the publication of a report by the Minister on achieving parity of pay.There is provision to ensure the report will be produced by the oversight body that will work with the Department and the officials present.

Many Senators have alluded to the disparity between high and low salaries. It is fair to say this and the previous Government which was in office until 2016 have restored the salaries of most of the lower paid. We have some work yet to do, but our commitment is clear.

Reference was made by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, to the covered and non-covered pay aspects. Anyone who has read the Dáil debates will know that the cornerstone is the public service agreement. Collective bargaining has been the hallmark of industrial relations. I remember as a young fellow in school the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. Senators Paddy Burke and Michael McDowell were probably knocking around at the time. It comes with the territory in having collective bargaining or an agreement. No one wants to go back to the winters of discontent in the 1980s when there was one union after another coming in. We believe in bargaining and negotiating with the unions as a collective. The collective representative organisation is the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and we have no reason to believe we have anything other than full co-operation in how the agreement is will play out. The Government believes everyone is and should be covered by the agreement, rightly so. There will be those who agree and those who do not. Naturally, if people communicate their decision not to agree, there will have to be swings and balances to be struck, as the Minister has pointed that out. Otherwise, what is the point in having an agreement? The agreement is about maintaining industrial peace. In recent years we have come through the worst economic recession since the foundation of the State. It is testament to the public service and three Governments in office, to which Senator Paddy Burke referred, that no strikes were foisted on the people. Schools and offices were kept open and public services continued to be delivered in a winter of tough decisions that had to be taken.

It is important to point out that we have an agreement that is orderly. We know that we want to try to achieve an orderly unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest legislation which no one wants to have on the Statute Book, but we have to work within the amount of money available. It has been pointed out what will be available to us in 2018, 2019 and 2020. We have been very honest and upfront with the trade union leadership. As a former member of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, I understand from where members are coming. However, I know from speaking to individuals on a case by case basis that they are acutely aware of where the State is. We do not want to go back to where we came from. We are working with the oversight body and union representatives to ensure that, ultimately, everyone will be on the same pathway.

I want to go back to a point raised by Senators Paddy Burke and Michael McDowell. It is one on which I agree entirely with them, although perhaps it is a debate for another day. Senator Rose Conway-Walsh also referred to the issue. Senator Michael McDowell is absolutely right. We are going to wind up with politics being confined to a small narrow group who will have nothing to lose. That is not right for democracy. We have had considerable debate on the question of trying to get more women to become involved in politics. I came into the Houses in my 30s, but if he or she is anything south of 40 years of age, a person would want to have rocks in his or her head to put his or her name forward for election He or she would be putting himself or herself in a very vulnerable posittion if he has a wife or she has a husband , family and mortgage, like most of us do. Why, in the name of God, would a person enter politics in his or her 30s, given the way in which it has descended to the lowest common denominator and been run down into the ground?

The first thing I had to say about high pay was that members of the Government were not covered. It is the awful sad reality that every time we have to speak about any resolution, we must apologise for our existence as politicians. We have had debates on the involvement of women in politics, about quotas and young people, rightly so, but we need to start to have an honest discussion in the Houses on what we want from politics. If we want to keep it as the preserve of those who have nothing to lose, as Senator Michael McDowell said, that is fine. I have no problem with it. However, we should at least be honest about it. This place will only have seats for those who, if they are kicked out, will go back to where they had come from. If we truly want to have a representatives sample of the men and women of Ireland, we will have to reflect on what we should put in place. We need to put in place proper systems and schemes that will stand up to scrutiny, be fair and that the media might not like. I have never heard media representatives express views on their terms and conditions or pension remuneration. Everything I do, from the number of biros I keep to the amount of paper clips and toner I consume, is public information, rightly so, and I have no problem in standing over it.

No public servant covered by the agreement should be put in a situation where his or her job will come within the confines of a narrow set. I know that I am moving off script, but I agree entirely. The Seanad would do us all a favour in life if in the new year if it were to have a good, proper and mature adult conversation on the kind of politicians we want to have in this country in the future. If we want all of them to be from the same cohort, that is fine. As is said, we get what we vote for.

I have taken note of the remarks made. The main issue is pay parity and I have dealt with it. I have also dealt with the covered and non-covered pay aspects. It is welcome that amendments will be tabled, but I remind Senators that this is a money Bill and everyone knows that when it comes to money Bills, it is the Government prerogative. I remind Senators that we need to have this done before 1 January. I appreciate the comments of Senator Alice-Mary Higgins about the fact that the Bill is not being opposed. Many public servants are in the wings and want to ensure we will pay them what they are owed under the agreement. That must be the over-riding principle. I look forward to dealing with the rest of the matters raised on Committee and Report Stages.