John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I welcome the opportunity to clarify some things such as the abolition of the difference between city and county councillors, as introduced in the reform of local government, and the measure to ensure city councillors are treated in the same way and are no longer subject to a six-month delay. There was previously a certain view that municipal districts should be treated differently to area committees. Having abolished the two-tier system, any move to reintroduce it would have been a retrograde step, to say the least.

I will now respond to the issues raised this evening. The committee that I will refer to later, which will look at councillors' pay and conditions in advance of the next local elections, will certainly examine Senator Horkan's concern over how area committee chairmen are treated compared with municipal district chairs.

Senator McDowell raised a number of interesting points, not all of which concern councillor remuneration. It is certainly fair to say, however, that Dublin City Council with its budget of €1 billion is a very significant organisation and it is only right to ask questions about how that money is spent. It is also only right to ask about the local property tax, the review of which will take place in 2019, and may we all still be here for it. Apart from addressing rates of collection, part of that review must also examine the distribution of the LPT through the local government fund. The fund and the mechanism for its distribution are based on a time that is now passed and this must also come under the examination of the review. Whatever property taxation system exists, however, areas with the highest demand and prices for property will almost invariably receive higher tax revenue on those properties. People in both south and north Dublin, for example, have certain benefits that others around the country do not. That is not to say, however, that the current system should not be reviewed or that things could not perhaps be made fairer.

Senator Mac Lochlainn's point about Senators earning the average industrial wage is a fair one. I do not agree with him, however, when he suggests that local government could end up the preserve of the wealthy. I am a student of local government and of the Poor Law Acts of the 1850s and 1860s, which acted to set up a system of local government and were then superseded by the Local Government Act 1898. At that point in history, local government bodies were entirely composed of the rate-paying landed classes. Things have changed dramatically. During my own time on Kilkenny County Council I was lucky in that I was a student living at home, with parents who provided me with a house and older brothers who gave me a banger of a car. At the end of the month I would get a cheque for £200 or £300, which I, as a second year college student, was happy to get. Things have moved on a lot since then. That is not to say that I disagree with the argument that councillors do not get paid enough. I fundamentally agree and that is why the committee I will refer to later is going to deal with this issue.

Senator Wilson is one of the wisest old owls of the Oireachtas. I fundamentally disagree with him, however, when it comes to the idea that councillors' pay should be tied to that of Senators. It should not. It should be tied instead to a grade in the Civil Service, along with all of the knock-on benefits, including a pension and increments as part of wage agreements. I do not think that councillors should be linked to other politicians like the Taoiseach, Ministers, Ministers of State, Deputies and Senators. They should be linked to a grade. That is my own view, but it is a matter to be dealt with by the committee I am going to refer to.

Senator Boyhan argued that 2019 is not good enough. Those who stood for local election in 2014 knew what terms and conditions currently apply to councillors, this slight modest improvement aside. I feel then that it would be appropriate to introduce a fundamentally new system at the start of a new term. I suggest to Senator Boyhan that what is particularly important here is that people know what the terms and conditions are well in advance of the next local elections.None of the speakers who spoke so eloquently from the Fianna Fáil benches last week to criticise the €1,000 allowance allocated for councillors pointed out that Fianna Fáil had cut councillors' pay by €1,400 over the course of the lifetime of the last Fianna Fáil-led Government. A number of external factors were at play, but I thought it was interesting that they failed to remember it. I suppose it is my job to remind them.

I thank the Senators for their contributions. I want to get into a few specifics. It is fair to say that councillors do have a much broader portfolio function at sub-county level, and even at county level, than they would have had in the past. I take Senator McDowell's point about extending the powers of local government on board. Three reports on local government from my Department were due in the last couple of weeks. One concerns municipal governance for our larger cities, one concerns the remuneration issue and the other is on urban governance in general, in terms of the absence of town councils. Those reports are imminent. It is important that our expenses and salary regime for councillors is of the highest standards and is transparent. It was absent in my comments last week, but it has always been my intention that the rules of vouching expenses that apply to Members of the Oireachtas will apply to councillors. My words last week indicated differently, and I have been able to get clarification on a number of matters in that regard. If Senators and TDs are audited in terms of their expenditure - I have had the pleasure of being audited for the past two years -----