Mark Daly (Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to discuss events in Catalonia. There is significant cause for concern in the violence that was perpetrated in the region during the attempt to hold a referendum on independence. I have no doubt that some 100 years ago, there were people in Parliaments around Europe pointing to the need for the rule of law to be upheld in Ireland as it attempted to leave the United Kingdom. I am sure the first Irish Parliament, of which this House is a successor, was described at the time as undemocratic because it did not comply with the constitution of the UK. However, that is all a matter of historical record.

In terms of what is happening in Catalonia and what the Spanish Government is doing in response, we would all agree that people should, of course, be allowed to have their say. If the Catalonian population chooses to have a referendum, it should be permitted to take place. That desire by the people to exercise their democratic rights was facilitated in Scotland and Quebec, but it has not been accommodated in Catalonia. We do not know whether the majority of Catalonians are in favour of independence, because the numbers differ depending on which opinion poll one is consulting. Spain, like the European Union, has evolved and changed over time. Having come out of the era of Franco and gone through the establishment of the various autonomous regions, which were given some level of local powers, there is nothing to say it cannot evolve and change once again. The challenge for the Spanish Government is that in saying to the people of Catalonia that democracy will not be allowed to have its say, the Catalonians are being left with very few alternative courses of action. The long and unfortunate campaign by Basque separatist groups and others was the absolute opposite of democracy. People must be shown that democracy works and will be allowed to work.

Fianna Fáil welcomes the proposals by the Spanish Parliament for the establishment of a parliamentary committee. This is essentially an issue for the people of Spain and Catalonia to resolve, but that does not mean we cannot raise our concerns regarding incidences of violence. There was no reason for the violence that took place. The referendum could have been allowed to proceed without any need for stopping people from going into polling booths and sanctioning local police to use force. The Spanish Government could have allowed the ballots to be counted and simply ignored the result if it so chose. It is often the case when such conflicts arise, as we saw in this country 101 years ago, that reactions by governments can lead to exactly the opposite outcome to what is intended. The path the Spanish Government is going down runs counter to its own arguments. The Spanish cannot talk about democracy while allowing their police force to beat up pensioners. Nobody in this Chamber or in this country would support the Spanish Government's approach to the crisis it faces. The situation has been going on for decades or centuries, depending on which view one takes, but the response by the Spanish authorities has been appalling and should be condemned by everybody.

We all hope the matter can be resolved and that a fair committee will be established which allows for a referendum on independence, as happened in Quebec, if that is what the people of Catalonia decide. As I said, it is not clear whether a majority of Catalonians would vote to leave Spain. The point is that democracy must be supreme. If we do not allow people to have a democratic say, then we leave them with very little alternative. They can either sit tight and accept that democracy will not have its say or they can seek out alternative routes to what they wish to achieve. That was the approach taken by the British Government to events in this country 100 years ago. We do not want the same situation to evolve in Spain but it will require the authorities there to learn lessons from the mistakes of the past in regard to the establishment of this Parliament and the treatment by the British authorities of the will of the Irish people. Of course, the will of the Irish people was not in compliance with the constitution of the UK at the time, which is not to defend the rule of law under the British regime. The United States constitution stated at one time that a slave was not entitled to be a free man. In other words, constitutions are not always right.

We all hope for an end to violence in Catalonia and a peaceful outcome to the current conflict. The European Union has a role to play in achieving that but the first requirement is that everybody who saw the violence must condemn it. As we know, governments acted within the law to prevent marches in Northern Ireland. People just wanted their civil rights but were beaten off the streets. The law said that could be done because the marchers were not complying with the laws passed by Parliament. That approach ultimately leads down the wrong road and we must ensure Spain and Catalonia do not take that road. The Catalonian people must be allowed to vote in a referendum on independence, if that is what they choose to do. How the issues are resolved in the long term is a matter for the populations of Spain and Catalonia. We hope the Catalonian people can be allowed to make their own decision as to the best outcome for their region. It is not acceptable that a country which purports to be a democracy would allow pensioners, students and others to be beaten when they are simply trying to exercise their democratic rights. Nobody in this Chamber would condone such activity. As democrats, we must condemn a situation where people who were engaged in what was essentially an opinion poll, because of the manner in which it was not allowed to function properly, were denied their right to do so. There is a difficult balance to be achieved in this instance but we must condemn the actions of any government that resorts to beating what it claims to be its own citizens. As I said, the same thing happened in Northern Ireland when the police force there attacked the citizens it was supposed to protect. The world saw what happened in the North and condemned it. Unfortunately, it led Northern Ireland down a road we all regret.