Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Labour) | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge and welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Stanton, and his officials who I know well and also those in the Visitors Gallery who have been affected so personally by this issue of murder.

The contribution of Senator Marie-Louise O'Donnell was very impressive. I congratulate her for introducing this Bill because it allows us to discuss the issue of murder.

In fairness, as I stand here in opposition to the Bill, I do so in an attempt to give a nuanced point of view, which does not in any way mean that I or people who have a similar point of view, as has been articulated already, are in any way not aware of the effects of murder, that it is a life sentence for the families of the victims of murder, and that nobody wants to send a message to society that murder should not be punished. However, we have to deal with realities.

Ireland currently has a mandatory life sentence for murder. Just ten EU member states have mandatory life sentences for murder, others have minimum sentences ranging from ten years. A life sentence always lasts for life although the portion of the sentence served in prison can vary. If released from prison, the person remains under licence and can be recalled at any time for breach of conditions. This Bill seeks to introduce minimum custodial periods that must be served in prison before release on parole can be considered. There are benefits to bringing clarity and certainty to the portion of the life sentence that a prisoner can be expected to spend in prison. There is a life sentence already. What is at issue and what we are discussing is the portion of that life sentence which is spent in prison.

The basis for the starting point of 25, 30 and 40 years in the Bill is unclear. These starting points would put Ireland at the more punitive end of the range in Europe, as has been said by my colleague in the Fianna Fáil Party, and more in line with Russia, Poland, Estonia and Moldova than western European jurisdictions such as Denmark. Minimum sentences are not averages. A sentence of 25 years is one of the highest minimum periods that would be enforced in Europe. In Ireland, life sentence prisoners can apply for parole at seven years but would have no realistic prospect of release until at least 15 years have been served.The average time currently served, as the proposer of the Bill has pointed out, is 17.5 years. If we are talking about trying to deter people from committing a murder, if somebody expects to serve 17.5 years or 25 years, I am not sure that factor will be considered by somebody intent on committing this crime.

Average time served by people sentenced to life imprisonment increased from 11 years in 2002 to a peak of 22 years in 2012 and 17.5 years in 2015. The length of time served is increasing. However, due to the low number - between one and six - of life sentence prisoners who are released every year, the average length of time does not give a clear picture. For example, in 2012 a prisoner died in hospital having served 36 years of a life sentence. In 2013 a life sentence prisoner was released having served 13 years. The circumstances were very different in those two cases. There are approximately 355 people in prison in Ireland serving life sentences, not all for murder. Some 12 of these are female.

This is probably not a very popular point but it is one that is important to put on the record of the House. The impact of this Bill on prison and justice resources, indirectly and unintentionally, would be immense. My view is that it would be far better to invest resources in crime prevention than punishment. I often make the point that in New York, planning for prison spaces required in 15 years time involves looking at the literacy rates of 11 year olds. In circumstances were people are grieving for lost loved ones because of murder, the circumstances or the conditions of a life that lead a person to commit a murder is the least of their concerns, but in the overall sense it is an important point which needs to be made in this debate, which is only happening because of the Bill that was put forward by my colleague.

Life sentence prisoners are a huge drain on prison resources due to particular needs over a longer time. If one gets a life sentence, it is a life sentence. What we are debating here is the period of time of that life sentence that is spent in prison.

Proposals that should be considered instead of this Bill, which are backed by the Irish Council of Civil Liberties, are that delayed proposed changes to presumptive minimum custodial periods under conviction for murder should take place within the context of parole reform as per commitments by successive Ministers for Justice. In 2014 the cross-agency Department of Justice and Equality's strategic review on penal policy, which included victim representative groups, recommended that a minimum term before parole can be considered should be set out in statute that more accurately reflects the expectations of offender and society. The review group expected that this would be achieved within legislation establishing a parole board on a statutory basis.

I commend the proposer of the Bill for her passion in bringing forward this debate to the House. Those of us with a nuanced view of this issue are not in any way trying to suggest that we are soft on crime or soft on murder, but we want to deal with the realities of the situation. Opponents of the Bill are not in any way trying to diminish the suffering or the pain that has been felt and experienced by those in the Visitors Gallery today and throughout Ireland who have been victims of murder. Most people in this House would have been to the funerals of murder victims, as I have been myself. We have to deal with this in the round and speak honestly. We have to speak as legislators. While congratulating the Senator on bringing this Bill to the House, because we would not be having this debate if it was not for her initiative, I and my party will be opposing the Bill.