Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent) | Oireachtas source

My apologies. Let me say the following by way of more generally answering a couple of the thematic questions on the HIQA investigation and tribunal of inquiry. We need to be careful that there is no overlap. It will take a little bit of time to develop the terms, particularly for HIQA. That will be done subsequent to the terms for the tribunal of inquiry.

More generally what we can say is the tribunal of inquiry will look at this specific case in terms of the McCabes, Tusla, the gardaí, etc. The HIQA investigation will consider the systems and processes in terms of the complaints made about abuse of children, which has to be done as well.Senator Kelleher and others have raised questions highlighting the importance of this being done as quickly as possible in order for the people of Ireland to have confidence in Tusla. I completely agree with that. I earlier expressed deep concerns about Tusla. In respect of the timing of the HIQA investigation, we are trying to balance, on the one hand, the need to get it done as swiftly as possible for all the reasons the Senators have identified and on the other, the need to ensure that the focus is as right as it can be. This is to ensure that we get the answers and the reassurances that I need, as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, to be able to maintain confidence in the organisation. Those are the things that we are dealing with right now.

In terms of how long it will take, my Secretary General has been having meetings with HIQA in the last couple of days. My understanding from him is that it will probably take us until some time next week to be clear about how long the investigation will take. That is because we need to balance those things I have mentioned, as well as ensuring that it does not stray into the commission of investigation. My officials know that I want it to be as swift as possible and yet it must address all of the issues. I do not have the terms right now. My officials are working with HIQA, its CEO and its senior management team to put the best possible terms together. They will be done as soon as possible and we will have a timeline but these are complex issues.

To respond to many of the questions that have been raised in respect of Tusla, I will say that HIQA has done, and continues to do, independent investigations of all areas in which Tusla works throughout the country. They have done baseline reviews of each of these areas with regard to how systems and processes are implemented. One often hears in the news that we are getting another report from HIQA in terms of a particular area in which Tusla works. These reports are to ensure that the work carried out meets certain standards. Obviously they review it against a number of standards. In some of those areas these standards are met, in other areas it is recognised that there is still a risk for children.

Baseline reviews have been carried out and we are now into the second phase. This is about identifying particular key concerns, depending on what the area is. They try to focus a little bit more on identifying some of those concerns and then go back in and focus on those aspects in that particular area. It is not as if this is the only review. I am not sure what the technical term is, or whether they might be called investigations but they are doing independent reviews of what is going on within those different areas and presenting their reports to me and to the public, identifying things that need to be improved upon. That is going on currently and that is part of what HIQA's job is, in addition to this particular investigation which we will be establishing. In light of these reviews taking place, we can say that there is monitoring and identification of child protection and welfare issues.

I hope the Senators will excuse me if I pass on a couple of other areas. Senator Boyhan asked about the data protection issues. If I remember his exact question correctly then, yes, there are issues here and we need to examine if they can be part of the investigation. He also asked a specific question about the deletion of the data. Let me be clear about that. The McCabes requested that the data be deleted from the Tusla files on their children and on the sergeant himself. That was done at their request. It should not have been on the system, if the Senator understands what I am saying. Having said that, files were deleted electronically. The paper files are under lock and key, so that they are there and available for the tribunal of inquiry in order for it to do its examination. The Senator also asked a question, which was repeated by another Senator, on the exact questions that different Ministers were asked. I have given my answer in that regard. I did not have any briefings in relation to any of those matters. I believe the Tánaiste is on record as saying that she does not either, but I will just offer my answer to that question. The Senator is perhaps right to ask that in respect of others.